Showing posts with label Saint John's Abbey. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Saint John's Abbey. Show all posts

Friday, May 15, 2020

There's a Site That Celebrates Evil Architecture Like the Modernist Monastery



Edit: I had to look at this a couple of times.  I blinked.  There is actually a site which is trying to save Brutalist architecture.  #SOSBRUTALISM.


#SOSBRUTALISM #SOSBrutalism is a growing database that currently contains over 1,800 Brutalist buildings. But, more importantly, it is a platform for a large campaign to save our beloved concrete monsters. The buildings in the database marked red are in particular jeopardy. This is an unprecedented initiative: #SOSBrutalism is open to everyone who wants to join the campaign to save Brutalist buildings! It is a powerful tool that allows fans of Brutalism to communicate with one another across Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr etc. You can follow our social media feeds below.
Interestingly, they are taking note of Brutalism's "bloody mindedness".


…what characterises the New Brutalism…is precisely its brutality, its je-m’en-foutisme, its bloody-mindedness. Reyner Banham, 1955 

 #SOSBrutalism has also led into an exhibition which has been jointly organized by the Deutsches Architekturmuseum (DAM) and the Wüstenrot Stiftung. It was on display at the DAM, Frankfurt am Main, Germany, from November 9, 2017 until April 2, 2018. With 47,000 visitors it was a great success, including a wide press coverage in print, radio and German prime time TV news. “SOS Brutalism – Save the Concrete Monsters!” is currently travelling. The first venue was Vienna with a new chapter on Austrian Brutalism: Architekturzentrum (Az W), May 3 until August 6, 2018. Stay tuned for future updates.

They even wrote a review of the Abbey Church at Saint John's Abbey in Collegeville.  What other kind of architecture would you expect to be associated with a den of vampires?



Collegeville, Minnesota, USA, Show on map #REL #CastInPlaceConcrete #FoldedPlate #North America
This edifice is part of a large Benedictine monastery and consists of a trapezoidal nave and a bell tower the shape of which is itself reminiscent of a bell. With the sculptural use of exposed concrete on a monumental scale, the church is considered a key item in Breuer’s oeuvre (Breuer’s first religious building), and in North American church architecture per se. Here, for the first time, there is a massive, rough-walled interior and thereafter the folded plate walls became an ever more prevalent feature. In Europe, there is nothing comparable at that time, either. 
Heritage-listed since 1979.


AMDG

Thursday, November 6, 2014

Benedictine Abbey in Minnesota: 2 Missing Persons and About 230 Victims, Evidence of Financial Misconduct and Luxurious Living -- No Apostolic Visitor

Edit: despite about 230 victims of sexual misconduct, not including predation upon vulnerable adults and college students, and two missing persons in the vicinity of St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, there have been absolutely no arrests and no convictions.   The Sheriff's department has been overtly hostile to  one of the victim's relatives, and no wonder, the Sheriff is a St. John's Abbey alumnus.

At approximately 11:00 pm and midnight on November 9, 2002, leaving Metten Court, a dormitory on the north end of St. John's University campus in Collegeville, Minnnesota, Josh Guimond disappeared.  His clothes, his wallet and car were all undisturbed.  He has been missing for 12 years this November.

Joshua Wetterling also disappeared on October 22nd, 1989 in close by St. Joseph.   Pine Curtain draws a connection between the Wetterlings and the a monk named Tom Gillespie.  The concerned monk consoled the Wetterlings when their son disappeared.

We're posting this to draw attention again to the evident corruption at one of the most famous Benedictine Monasteries in the world, if not the largest, and despite the ample evidence of serious corruption and negligence on the part of the monks, to say nothing of a singular indifference and hostility to the Catholic Faith which they claim to hold, there is not the slightest hint of an investigation, no calls for the resignation of the abbot, or the seizing of its assets by an Apostoilic Visitor.

Not even the local community has been moved to do anything about this resident evil.

Link to the Pine Curtain  about the disappearance, and analysis by Immelman Turn.

If you think it will do any good (it can't hurt), please contact the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Carlo Vignano:

3339 Massachusetts Ave NW, Washington, D.C. 20008
(202) 333-7121

Tuesday, October 23, 2012

Dissidents Disparage Catholic Faith Despite Archbishop's Words

"Father" Bob Pierson at "Gay Prom"
Edit: There was a lot of controversy a few months ago when a Benedictine guest master at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville wanted to host a nude retreat with a strange nude guru who threatened to "touch" people.   The retreat was cancelled, but the man who made the retreat continues to be a priest in good standing with the Archdiocese and the Order of Saint Benedict headed by the Rock Abbot, Notker Wolf.

Fr. Pierson was born on December 29, 1955 and  graduated from St. John's University in 1978. He was ordained on 2, June 1984.

He's famous in the past for resigning from his campus ministry position at St. John's University when the Pope announced some increased standards for seminarians.  Homosexuals were to be excluded.  The ruling was later softened, but Fr. Bob Pierson insisted on sticking to his guns.

Last year, he even found time to attend a "gay prom".

Since then, he's been toted by the media barons, like the anti-Catholic Huffington Post, as a "Gay Priest" which prompted some stern words from the local ordinary, Archbishop Nienstedt.

Despite the fact that Fr. Pierson identifies himself alternatively as "Epsicopalian" on his Facebook, he is still in good standing.  Indeed, he approves of and has even posted an open letter to the Archbishop by a Lutheran Lay-Bishop.

Despite all of these antics, and many others that go on at St. John's, theAbbey website still describes him as a Catholic monk in good standing, to whom it falls the task of creating an inviting, welcoming and caring environment for visitors to the Monastery.  It's a pretty tall order for anyone to make that badly wreckovated place look inviting.  The poured concrete Abbey Church is a significant pile of brutal concrete, designed by Jewish architect Marcel Breuer. It looks nothing like a Catholic Church and actually more closely resembles a Buddhist temple.  Still, irony of ironies, Father Pierson is in good standing with the Catholic Church and many local people, albeit a shrinking number, have been fooled into believing that the Abbey, the monk, his very public and scandalous declarations, are Catholic.

Despite all of this, more recently, the Benedictine told the tale that he'd been advised by Archbishop John Nienstedt to stay out of his Archdiocese.  Despite what looks like a very stern warning, the errant priest and one of his cohorts, Father Mark Tegeder, continue to work with wheelchair organizations like CALGM   and CPCSM which have been unwelcome in the Archdiocese in the past.

They also continue to be very public in attacking the Archbishop's marriage amendment.  Indeed, despite repeated warnings, including a pointed e-mail to Father Mark Tegeder, the priest has continued to speak publicly, to the glee of the local anti-Catholic Star.


Last fall, Nienstedt told priests and deacons that he expected them to support the marriage amendment and that "there ought not be open dissension on this issue."
He had more specific instructions for the Rev. Mike Tegeder, priest at St. Frances Cabrini Church in Minneapolis who's been a rare internal, public critic of the church on this issue.
"If you choose not to offer your resignation, but continue to act openly or speak publicly about your opposition to Church teaching, I will suspend your faculties to exercise ministry and remove you from your ministerial assignments," Nienstedt wrote to Tegeder in a letter last November.
Asked why the archbishop hasn't removed Tegeder, given the priest's continued public criticism, spokesman Jim Accurso said the archdiocese doesn't comment on personnel matters. More generally, Accurso said, "we are not aware of a single incident where the conduct of an employee regarding the marriage amendment has raised the issue of discipline."
Nienstedt has declined Pioneer Press requests to be interviewed about the marriage question.
To Tegeder, Nienstedt's push is "putting things really out of kilter."
What threatens marriage most is a bad economy and divorce, he said. Trying to deny a small percentage of people with homosexual orientations the right to have committed relationships under law "seems to be cruel."
"That's the odd thing about Nienstedt's making a big issue out of this. There's a small percent of gay people, but what is it, 50 percent of marriages break down or something? Using the constitution to do what he says he's doing, defending marriage, it's like using a bazooka to kill a fly. You're going to get all kinds of collateral damage; you're not doing what you're trying to accomplish."

Wednesday, September 19, 2012

Collegeville Continues to Defy Archbishop Nienstedt

Decadent Monk Father Pierson
Edit: Just recently, the Archbishop reasserted firm words about the importance of the defense of marriage act to the defense of the family, the most fragile community in the society from Lifesitenews.
“What we so rarely hear on the discussion on the marriage amendment is that it is meant to be a positive affirmation of both the beauty as well as the importance of this fundamental union for society,” said Nienstedt, “and even more so for the children who are born of that relationship, that is to say the next generation to come.”
“I ask all Minnesotans - all Minnesotans - to join us in voting yes on November 6th.”
He is also enjoining upon his clergy that they not remain silent as teachers of Catholic truth. Lifesitenews also quotes his exact words from last year in an address to his priests which we'll repeat here:
“The gravity of this struggle, and the radical consequences of inaction propels me to place a solemn charge upon you all — on your ordination day, you made a promise to promote and defend all that the Church teaches. I call upon that promise in this effort to defend marriage. There ought not be open dissension on this issue.”
Since last year, there have been a number of frequent defections, including Father Mark Tegeder of St. Francis Cabrini Parish in Minneapolis, as well as Father Bob Pierson of Modernist Collegeville. Father Pierson admited earlier in August that he was asked to lay low by Abbot John Klassen, but he hasn't done so and continues to flaunt the Archbishop's authority and says that he intends on voting "no" with respect to the defense of marriage. He just can't help himself, one of his fellow dissidents writes in response to Archbishop Nienstedt's statement on Father Pierson's facebook the following on August 30th as it appeared with typos and Father Pierson's endorsement:
I respectful disagree with the Archbishop. Even if you believe that marriage is between one man and one woman, this amendment does not belong in the State Constitution. I urge you to VOTE NO. Go to web site for Catholics for Marriage Equity MN (www.c4me.org) and to Minnesotans United for all Families (www.mnunited.org) and see why the marriage amendment is thw wrong thing to do, why it is inconsistent with Catholic Social Teachings, and why Catholics can and should vote no. Listen to Fr. Bob Pierson of St. John's University or Sabrina Brys Mauritz, a former Catholic social justice coordinator explain why they will Vote No. I am a retired Cahtolic Social Justice Coordinator and I will vote NO. It wasn't that long ago that our church defended slavery and was opposed to interracial and interfaith marriages. Voting No is no threat to my marriage or anyone else's marriage, but it may allow gay couples that are in love to make the same commitment we have been able to make. Remember it wasn't Jesus that every once spoke against gays; afterall God created such diversity in the human race. It really is a partisan issue which our Bishops should not have engaged in. They look more like bigots than followers of Jesus as they show no compassion, love or understanding for gays.

Tuesday, July 3, 2012

Modernist Monastery Perpetuates its Rank Evil

Father Mel Taylor
Edit some may recall when Father Taylor, an Irish born monk from the Modernist Monastery,  was accused of misconduct back in the 80s. Here is another, somewhat more dramatic response.

 The Modernist Monastery has a long history itself of deception.  They present themselves as Benedictines, acting with the approval of the Pope. Despite this, they have refused to support the Archbishop's recent defense of marriage campaign as reported by Lifesite.

A show of docility and obedience to their lawful superiors would go against the agenda of disobedience and depravity they've long established for themselves.

An important dimension of their plan of deception is sending predators to the Bahamas where they can lay low. One of Collegeville's most vicious molesters is Father Alllen Tarlton, who's actually a native of the Bahamas and has been sent there since the 60s for "health reasons".

Father Taylor is one of the last monks to be sent to St. John's Bahamas resort getaway now that it's closing forever.

  From the Pine Curtain:

Father Mel Taylor reportedly left the Bahamas on Monday, June 4, 2012, a day after he was confronted during mass by a young man who claimed Father Mel Taylor had pursued him (for a sexual relationship) over a year and a half period. The man used the church’s microphone after communion to make the accusations.

Father Mel Taylor was not scheduled to leave the Bahamas until June 24, 2012 but reportedly left early “for health reasons.”

Father Mel Taylor arrived in the Bahamas in 1980, following allegations of misconduct in Cold Spring, Minnesota. Father Mel Taylor served as associate pastor of St. Francis Xavier Cathedral in Nassau, Bahamas for one year.
Link to Pine Curtain...


The Walls are Closing in on the Golden Monk

This and other revelations from the Modernist Monastery bring the seething and indignant letter by Collegeville's artist in residence, Jerome Tupa, who features statues with phalluses made of gold, who accused the Pine Curtain and the school newspaper of slander.

His remarks actually prompted a former student to write a letter which appears on the Pine Curtain.
I’m very disgusted by the whole thing, especially given that we just went through this recently and we were assured that the place was fixed and in good hands. It is even more disturbing to read of monks who are indignant at people writing articles that try to bring the info out in the open. If I were a monk at St. John’s, I would not be bragging about how long I have been on campus, apparently blind to the … abuse going on under your nose. Try eating a piece of humble pie before getting people fired from their jobs at the Record.
Unsurprisingly, Jerome Tupa has been accused credibly of sexual abuse, but is being moved around. When they're caught, they respond and say they're sorry, and then go back to doing what they were doing before with a few modifications. They're still being moved around and protected. What's the common factor in all of this?

Tupa's "Art" $3500

Thursday, March 22, 2012

Modernist Abbey Steeped in Dissent and Deceit

Edit: We received a post from an observant reader about the "Catholic Association of Lesbian Gay Ministry".  This  is the same organization which was forbidden from using a Catholic parish in the Archdiocese of St. Paul last February as reported by Lifesite News:


MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota, February 23, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Fr. Leo Tibesar, a Catholic priest, was scheduled to host an upcoming Catholic Association of Lesbian and Gay Ministries (CALGM) Fund Raising dinner at his parish in Minneapolis later this month, until the event was suddenly cancelled yesterday.
 Fr. Leo Tibesar, dubbed a “well known and highly respected Same Sex Marriage and Gay Rights Activist” in official event announcements, has openly supported and been actively involved in movements that oppose the Catholic Church on the issues of marriage and homosexuality for many years.

The organizer of the event, a Father Bob Pierson is the treasurer for the sponsoring organization which features gay marriage.  Elizabeth D really summed it up beautifully, how this entire thing is interconnected and very much alive in the Archdiocese and the Monastery of St. John's in Collegeville.

The monk Fr Bob Pierson who was the contact person for this retreat is also Tresurer for the sponsoring organization "Catholic Association of Lesbian and Gay Ministry" and almost all the other board members of this group can be verified online to be involved in other organizations explicitly in favor of homosexual "marriage"; at least one board member (an "inferfaith minister") performs same sex ceremonies. Based on web searching, the retreat leader Bob Pileggi is apparently a fallen away Catholic, has been a staff member of the pro-gay-marriage "Lambda Legal Defense Fund" for outreach and as coordinator of "The Marriage Project", and he also offers his services as an interfaith minister conducting custom weddings and other ceremonies clearly including same sex "weddings".
According to the Abbey website, Father Bob Pierson is:

Father Robert Pierson OSB Born in Estherville, Iowa, 29 December 1955; ordained 2 June 1984 Father Robert earned his bachelor's degree in social science from Saint John's University and master of divinity degree from Saint John's University School of Theology/Seminary. He has served as a pastor, seminary rector, director of field education, spiritual director, vocations director, chaplain, director of campus ministry, faculty resident, member of the Saint John's Abbey Schola, cantor and abbey fireman.
Selected quotes and stories about Father Bob Pierson who organized this event:

On the Catholic Church, he writes in the Pray, Tell blog:

There are aspects of our life as a Church that need to die so that we can experience the power of the resurrected life that God holds out to us this Easter Day.
Father Pierson also lost his composure when an instruction was released in 2005 disallowing homosexuals from being in the priesthood.  He was justifiably ridiculed by Diogenes at Catholic Culture after Pierson resigned from the Campus Ministry at St. John's:  Brother Reinhart incredibly called the dissenting priest "courageous" and a man of "integrity".   Here's part of the what Father Pierson wrote:

"For quite some time I have wrestled with conflicting teaching by the church -- that gays and lesbians are to be respected, but that somehow we are not fit for work in the church," said Pierson, who announced his decision in an e-mail message Wednesday to staff and students.
"But with the new teaching, which says gay men are 'objectively disordered' and cannot relate properly to men and women, it became clear to me that I cannot continue in campus ministry," Pierson said.
"For me, I have decided that I am not disordered, that I can be an effective celibate gay priest, that I can relate effectively with men and women," he said. "I have chosen not to be dishonest about my thoughts and feelings, and to resign."
Despite frequent and vociferous dissent from Catholic teaching, Father Pierson, like many others at they moribund Benedictine Abbey continue their scandalous behavior and are permitted by superiors of all kinds to persist in creating a poisonous habitat for the students and laity they are supposed to be serving.

Monday, March 19, 2012

Nude Guru Invites Monks and Students to Touch

Participants need not be Christian – simply comfortable with that environment. We’ll create a community of consciousness together, supporting one-another’s journey into and through the body to the Divine.  -Bob Pilaggi

Bob Pilagi at "Temple"
Edit::In an article by Matt Abbott in Renew America,  featuring a letter by Barb Krallis complaining to the Bishop of Dallas about Father Richard Rohr.'s counseling techniques involving nudity, she denounces him as a dangerous and heretical threat to purity.

Indeed, as Archbishop Sheen taught, anytime nudity is used in therapy or instruction, it is a sign of demonic influence.

Father Richard Rohr still at large, favors retreats where men get naked and touch each other to "release demons".    He writes:

The boy always gets naked, as you see in the sweat lodges, too. 
We have mentioned on a number of occasions that this technique of psychological instruction was used by sexually abusive monks at Collegeville, Minnesota.   It was employed by Abbot John Eidenschenk upon his novices with some predictable results.

Now, from the Pine Curtain, at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, Minnesota, the home of nearly a dozen credibly accused homosexual sexual predators, a counselor arrives on the scene advocating that students and monks touch each other.

The man to whom this allegedly Catholic institution is entrusting students, himself, teaches in the nude and does not share the Catholic Church's teachings on homosexuality.  One of Mr. Pileggi's admirers puts it like this in a blog post entitled, "When a Teacher of God 
Takes off His Clothes":

I realized that when I undress another man and allow him to undress me – as I have in workshops and private sessions in erotic spirituality and as I will at the Edward Carpenter Community’s Gay Men’s Week this September (The Dance Between Power and Intimacy) – we are creating the sacred space in which we can use erotic energy to transcend ego and come into a new relationship with Spirit.
Pine Curtain....

Monday, March 28, 2011

Attorney: St. John's Abbey abuse suits settled

Editor: Make a decision. What is St. John's Abbey anyway? You want to be social workers, political activists, cavaliers or Monks? Is there anyone who thinks that this place will change its stripes without significant personnel changes? You can tell on the Prey, Tell blog that nothing's changed over there. They're still making excuses for irresponsible behavior and dishonesty over there.

If they're not capable of following even simple rules with respect to praying the Liturgy, you can't expect much else of them. It's probably a safe bet that they'll continue living double lives like David Berger, and they will continue ignoring whatever comes from Rome that doesn't comfit with their lifestyle, including the vow of chastity they took. It was part of Benedict of Nursia's famous Rule.

Anyhow who has read the rule, and knows this Modernist place of diabolical delusion will understand the great abyss that separates how these men live the Rule of St. Benedict and the Rule itself; sexual continence is more of a suggestion and don't get us started about poverty. Like parasitic worms, the Monks do almost none of their own labor; They subcontract, again, forget about the rule of St. Benedict on that subject:


Mar 28, 2011 10:53am
Email
Print

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — Nine men who filed lawsuits claiming sexual abuse at the hands of monks or priests have reached settlements with St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, the plaintiffs' attorney said Monday.

The accused clergy all taught at St. John's Preparatory School or were assigned to parishes, attorney Jeff Anderson said. He declined to disclose a dollar amount.

The alleged abuse occurred from the 1960s to 2004, Anderson said. At least one of the alleged offenders is now dead.

The settlement requires St. John's to send a letter to anyone who attended the prep school, disclosing the names of alleged offenders against minors, Anderson said.

Anderson distributed a draft of the letter, which names 17 priests and brothers, to reporters on Monday. Anderson said he expects Abbot John Klassen, who heads the monastery, to sign the letter according to the terms of the settlement.

None of the men accused in the lawsuits still works at the school and none has ever been criminally prosecuted, Anderson said.

Link to article...

KMSP news, no financial settlement, but it frees those who were part of other settlements to speak.

Thursday, March 17, 2011

Evil Nun to Receive Award from Fake Jews

Editor: If St. Patrick could chase all the snakes out of Ireland, can he chase all the Modernists out of Minnesota? No sooner have we been talking about the Visitation which is supposed to straighten dysfunctional elderly Nuns than this pops up. Also prominent is part of the "theology" department at the University run by the Modernist Monastery and the heretical Fr. Micheal O'Connell. It's a love fest involving all of the evil forces in the Midwest. Be sure to contact the number below and the Archdiocese of St. Paul to let them know how much you appreciate the fact that they've made a comfortable zone for evil and Modernism.

Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis

Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis
226 Summit Avenue
Saint Paul, MN 55102

Map & Driving Directions

Phone: (651) 291-4400
Fax: (651) 290-1629

Sister Marge Boyle to receive interfaith award from Temple Israel

By Larry Etkin
Free Speech Zone
March 17, 2011
http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2011/03/17/sister-marge-boyle-receive-interfaith-award-temple-israel

On March 25, 2011, Minneapolis Reform Jewish congregation Temple Israel will bestow its 2011 Interfaith Award to Sister Marge Boyle, Minneapolis. The award is given to exceptional leaders who have worked to build bridges and facilitate dialogue and interfaith understanding with the Jewish community.

Created in 1990, during the tenure of the late Rabbi Max Shapiro, the award recognizes individuals in other faiths who have worked tirelessly toward interfaith understanding. It's symbol is a "shofar," a ram's horn, given to award recipients. The shofar is used to symbolize the Jewish call to listen to the voices of others.

"In her Catholic community Marge is an incredible advocate for the Jewish people," said Temple Israel Senior Rabbi Marcia Zimmerman. "She is devoted to the study of Judaism and has been a part of our Temple family for many years." Sister Boyle has been heavily involved with Catholic-Jewish reconciliation activities for more than 30 years.

She will blow the Shofar Horn



Past award recipients have included Father Michael O'Connell, current pastor of the Church of the Ascension in North Minneapolis, College of Saint Benedict and Saint John's University professor of theology John C. Merkle, and most recently, in 2009, Reverend James Gertmenian of Plymouth Congregational Church, Minneapolis.

The award will be presented by Rabbi Zimmerman during the Friday evening Shabbat service, which begins at 6 p.m. Sister Boyle will deliver the evening's sermon. The service will be followed by a Congregational Dinner, requiring reservations and for which there will be a charge, and that will be followed by a discussion session with Sister Boyle which will begin at 8:15 p.m. Contact Temple Israel for more information: 612-377-8680.

Sister Boyle is a graduate of Stanford University, and earned a Master's Degree from the University of California at Berkeley, where she was involved in various social justice issues and interfaith activities, particularly Christian-Jewish activities.

In 1982, while in Israel, Marge encountered the Sisters of Our Lady of Sion, a small Roman Catholic international congregation. The primary work of the Sisters of Sion is Catholic-Jewish reconciliation.

Known formally as The Congregation of the Religious of Our Lady of Sion, the order was founded in 1843 by an Austrian convert from Judaism. Their principles, notes their website, include "a particular responsibility to promote understanding and justice for the Jewish community, and to keep alive in the Church the consciousness that, in some mysterious way, Christianity is linked to Judaism from its origin to its final destiny."

Sister Boyle's passion for interfaith work includes regular participation in interfaith and adult learning activities at Temple Israel, such as the weekly Saturday morning Torah Study. She also contributes her time an energies to broadly working for justice and equality in many arenas of society. She actively supports worker rights to collectively bargain and society's need to assist the disadvantaged.

The Interfaith Award Program is supported by the Knelman Family Fund for Interfaith Relations at Temple Israel.

\
H/t: Tom at AQ

Article Source, here...

Friday, December 24, 2010

On Thankfulness in the Christmas Season. Is Pray Tell a Catholic Blog?

While we’ll probably never know why, the liberal Benedictine blog run by our *friends* in Collegeville has removed the post on the blasphemous and sacrilegious “adaptation” of a traditional Catholic hymn to contemporary “lyrics.” EF covered the story here:

Scripture says that whenever a sinner repents, all heaven rejoices, so we should as well. Indeed, we must also rejoice in this holy season that the Holy See has held back the deluge of “liberal” “liturgy” that would otherwise ensue if the “liturgists” at Collegeville were free of Roman oversight. For a particularly horrid example of what they would concoct, take a look at what their Coreligionists have done to Presbyterian worship:


Having mentioned protestant worship, we ought to ask if Pray Tell is a Catholic blog. While Catholic Benedictines started it and are obsessed with the improved translation of the Roman Missal, the blog’s description does not use the word “Catholic” to describe itself. Perhaps it’s just a “catholic” blog.


So when a Lutheran contributor wrote about the last O Antiphon, should we be surprised?

Sunday, December 12, 2010

"Catholic" Blog Defends David Berger's Homosexual Deception

 Homosexual friendly clergy at "Pray, Tell" blog, hosted by some priests at a Modernist Monastery in the Midwest are focused like laser beams on what a dishonest homosexual activist from Germany and former theologian has to say about the Catholic Church and Its legitimate aspirations.  Berger's already accused the Church of hypocrisy about Its position about sodomy, why doesn't he join St. John's Abbey and all the other liberals who pose as Catholics and found their own religion?  It's ironic indeed that one of the largest centers of homosexual predators in the country if not the world also hosts a website concerned about the sexual health of Traditionalist priests.

Speaking of aspirations, Berger is enjoying almost universal praise from the anti-Catholic press.  The bloggers there, after insisting they are very familiar with Berger's work are very defensive of the homosexual charlatan.  If they ever met at St. John's Abbey for a conference, you can be assured there'd be a mutual admiration society set up.  One of the homosexual enabling blog's commenters complained that he didn't know what Berger's "professional" status in the Catholic Church is.  Well, Berger still teaches at a Catholic high school in Germany and like a lot of schools who hire active homosexuals either knowingly or unknowingly often refuse to fire them even after they've proven themselves to be less than honest.

Father Ruff rises to Berger's defense, insisting that he's read the deceptive German sodomite:

 Fr. Allan, if you haven’t read the book by Berger, perhaps you should step back from comparing it with Michael Rose’s book.

Berger is a bright theologian (doctorate in the field). I’m not so sure that Michael Rose even claims to be a theologian. Rose holds that homosexual orientation and homosexual people is the problem. We need “good men” again. Berger, rather, discusses the problematic ways people do or don’t deal with their orientation. I think this is a significant difference. I find the former homophobic, but not the latter.

I wouldn’t lump Berger and Rose together.

Yes, the latter is a lying homosexual poser, a confidence man who admitted to winning over people in Traditionalist circles to earn income while he  was living in a homosexual relationship with hiis "partner".  The former is an honorable man and was very accurate about what was going on at the Louvain, which at the latest had abandoned its Catholic identity and will be closing out in any case, due to a lack of interest in what they have to offer. 

Another blog contributor, Father Cody Unterseher is worried that this histrionic creature's book won't continue being carried by Ave Maria Press, thanks Cody:


One wonders if Sapientia Press of Ave Maria University will be courageous enough to keep Berger’s little book Thomas Aquinas & the Liturgy in print. It’s an very useful contribution, and I’d hate to see it fall victim to unnecessary and unhelpful suppression.

Saturday, October 9, 2010

Catholic Culture Discusses Decadent Benedictine Abbey

Editor: No one should have to shell out the kind of money they pay to attend a school where no integrity can be found at the core of the school's values. St. John's University alleges to be Catholic, and yet, students who matriculate from the school invariably leave what little faith they had behind at some point before graduation.

Up to this point, there's been vary little criticism directed at the school, and few people have made the obvious connection between sexual abuse and the Abbey's extremely modernist and decadent situation.

It is also a good time of the year to remember Josh Guimond, a student who disappeared from St. John's without a trace, leaving behind a sorrowing father and many questions which seems to have done nothing to challenge the integrity and responsibility the Abbey has for its permissiveness toward homosexuality and lack of theological rigor.

[Catholic Culture] In reading my commentary on the scandal at St. John’s Abbey in Collegeville, MN (Wolves among the Sheep: The Collegeville Affair), some may conclude that I stretch things a little when I suggest that it is likely that the students have been misled concerning the issues at stake (gay marriage, homosexual behavior, protesting Church teaching, etc.) by some who serve at the Catholic colleges in question (the College of St. Benedict and St. John’s University).

So let’s look more closely at what can be gleaned on this precise point from the news reports. First, after Archbishop Nienstedt refused communion to the students who approached wearing rainbow sashes in protest of Church teaching, the spokesman for St. John’s University, Michael Hemmesh, told the press that school officials had no comment. What? No support for the archbishop? No reiteration of Catholic doctrine? No comment at all on the behavior of their own students?

Second, the apparent spokesman for the students, Elizabeth Gleich, told the press that the students’ complaint is with the Church’s hierarchy, and with Nienstedt in particular, and not with the colleges: “We have found a welcoming community here. The last thing we want to do is create something divisive within our community.” Now let us speculate for a moment on what the difference between the hierarchy and the colleges might be. Is it that the hierarchy is constantly saying hateful things about those with homosexual inclinations? Does the hierarchy seek to drive those with homosexual inclinations out of the Church?

No, it is difficult to see any other possible conclusion than that the hierarchy upholds Catholic teaching and the colleges in question do not. In other words, the hierarchy teaches clearly that homosexual inclinations are disordered, that homosexual acts are sinful, and that gay marriage is a contradiction in terms which can only undermine the Church’s teaching on life, love and the sacrament of matrimony—even while welcoming those with homosexual inclinations and supporting them in their efforts to live chastely as Christ demands. But if this is so, then the colleges must teach something to the contrary, or at least remain silent in order to make gay and lesbian students, and their supporters, feel more comfortable with their inclinations and their sins.

Now it also turns out that Gleich is identified as a theology major at St. John’s University and as Vice President and a board member of People Representing the Sexual Minority (PRiSM), a gay advocacy group at the College of St. Benedict and St. John’s University. Thus, one of the clubs at these ostensibly Catholic schools (a club currently listed as such on the CBSJU website) is an advocacy group for gays. This situation is hardly uncommon, but what does it imply about university patronage?

Recent polls have shown that American Catholics favor same-sex unions of one type or another by more than three to one. This is, after all, the new cultural norm. Yet the Catholic hierarchy has made clear that this is incompatible with Catholic doctrine. In a highly relevant related matter, a study conducted by researchers at Mississippi State University earlier this year suggested that coeds were more promiscuous at Catholic colleges than the secular norm (and markedly more promiscuous than at evangelical schools). (Note: This would not have been the case at the newer crop of Catholic colleges which been deliberately founded or transformed over the past 40 years to put “Catholic” back into Catholic education.) Is there a pattern here?

Tellingly, the Mississippi State researchers concluded that “moral communities” exercise some restraint on sexual activity, but that “our findings might instead suggest that not all religiously affiliated colleges and universities constitute ‘moral communities.’” Somebody, then, is repeatedly sending contrary signals to Catholics, including students at Catholic schools. Even given mainstream media support for gay marriage, we would be very foolish indeed to conclude from the Minnesota episode that there are not a considerable number of such “somebodies” in Collegeville.

I’ll close by reminding everyone what this is all about. It is not a question of enforcing Church “rules” for their own sake. The question is simply this: Who really demonstrates love? Is it the person who conceals reality to accommodate those who flee from God into various unrealities of their own devising? Or is it the person who offers patient correction in an effort to bring the lost home to Christ? We might also ask which approach is easier and which approach leads to true happiness and eternal life. The answers are seldom the same. Catholic colleges that cannot articulate the difference effectively, both in the classroom and in the larger ambience [ambiance] of community life, are in serious need of reform.


Link to original... Catholic Culture...

Thursday, October 7, 2010

More News From Modernist Abbey & Friends



Home of the World's Ugliest and Most Expensive Bible


Following a rebuke from Archbishop Nienstedt, a Pro-Homosexual monk held a Mass for those school and abbey sponsored miscreants and publicity seekers. Insightful comments about priest who held Mass at Modernist Abbey "on a cold day in Hell" and his friends "down in da cities at other allegedly Catholic locales", here and here.

Photo: Abbey-Roads

Tuesday, October 5, 2010

Archbishop Nienstedt Refuses Communion to Homosexuals at Modernist Abbey

Everybody knows that St. John's isn't the place to go if you want authentic Monasticism, orthopraxis, orthodoxy, beautiful architecture, or even if you want to get an education in the Catholic Faith. You can't get any of that at St. John's, on Septembeer 26th, Archbishop Nienstedt slammed the door on a school approved Sodomy group by refusing them Holy Communion. Not even St. John's own BLOG had anything to say about it.

This is the first time we've ever seen St. John's so publicly reprimanded. It's been a long time a'comin. How about the heads of the faculty department on pikes in front of the Chancery, your Lordship?


[Minneapolis Star and Tribune] Twin Cities Archbishop John C. Nienstedt, leading a student mass at St. John's Abbey recently, refused to give communion to members of a gay and lesbian college student group who were wearing rainbow buttons in a sign of solidarity.

The conflict between the archbishop and students from the Roman Catholic St. John's University and the College of St. Benedict occurred during Sunday night mass in Collegeville, Minn., on Sept. 26.

The action came as Catholics throughout Minnesota have been sent hundreds of thousands of DVDs from the state's bishops in support of a ban on gay marriage


Link to Star for further reading...

H/t: Spirit Daily

Tuesday, March 30, 2010

Profile on the Author of the Milwaukee Schmear Against Pope Benedict

What you have here is a man who has unseen loyalties to powers and principalities, to organizations that have the destruction of the Catholic Church as their fundamental aim. This is the motive force behind the current orchestrated scandal, perhaps it's a part of what Fr. Malachi Martin termed, the "Superforce".

Jeffry Anderson is described as a man, ironically, on a "Crusade" against the Catholic Church. It's not just Jeffrey Anderson who is liable to be described in this way. Certain individuals, indeed, entire nations and political movements in history, have enjoyed and benefitted from their enmity with the Catholic Church, entities like Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany. Like the aforementioned regimes, Jeff Anderson has a certain affiliation and kinship to powers of such malevolence, that their hatred of Christ was the scene of mass starvation and some of the greatest untold crimes of the last two centuries. What shouldn't be so startling to anyone is the fact that Communists do use the tactics being employed by Jeff Anderson, here. The erstwhile graduate from the provincial William Mitchel School of Law,  has come to do battle with the Catholic Church, as a member of the American and Minnesota Civil Liberties Unions and also claims a certain spiritual connection with a vague and ambient spirituality reminiscent of Gnosticism, which is fitting since his claims must certainly rely and on occult knowledge of a diabolical nature.

Now, we've mentioned that he is a member of the culturally Marxist, ACLU and Minnesota Civil Liberties Union. Their hostility to Catholicism in particular and religion in general is well-established, so then it follows logically that Mr. Anderson is acting according to his principles in attacking the Catholic Church, since we can hopefully assume that he shares the views and tactics of those antagonists of Religion.

But what of the Pedophile Connection?

Well, Jeff claims to be attacking the Catholic Church on behalf of the victims. Perhaps they are more of a utility than a heartfelt aspiration on his part to see Justice done. Indeed, he had been taking these cases for 10 years prior to the event of his daughter's alleged molestation, which he maintains was what began his "Crusade" in earnest, at the hands of an ex-priest who was acting as a therapist to deal with emotional issues related to his divorce. Catholicism rejects divorce, but surely, he bears some responsibility for that and sending your daughter to an ex-priest: isn't that res ipse loquitur that the negligence belongs to the nature of the act of sending one's 8 year old daughter to an ex-priest as a result of one's own inability to hold together one's own family?

Lest you think we're being unfair, it has to be said that Mr. Anderson wasn't being terribly fair when he failed to contact any of the key figures in the case beforehand for their account, indeed, when you compare the two stories alongside, Mr. Anderson's suffers from a profound lack of coherence and, well, just plain old truth. Mr. Anderson maintains that the Catholic Church had covered up the abuse and had not done anything about it, and is clumsily attempting to portray Pope Benedict as engaging in a cover up, when the details of the case indicate plainly otherwise, that it was in fact the Vatican that stepped in and dealt with the case in 2005 as Father Thomas Brandage indicates, here calling Jeff Anderson's and the New York Times' work, "sloppy and inaccurate".

Is Archbishop Weakland a Good Source?

Well, he's been caught lying so many times that it's strange that the New York Times would rely on him as a source, as Father Raymond de Souza points out here as he lays out his own timeline of events related to the case, in defense of the Papacy, here.

Father de Souza maintains that +Weakland isn't a good source because he himself is an abuser who stole $450,000 to pay an extortionist, but what of our ACLU and MCLU member and "Crusder" Jeff Anderson whose supposed concern for the poor is far more interwoven with an international effort to discredit the Church, by any means necessary, even resorting to libel.

The Democratic Connection

We made a moment out of Jeff Anderson's supposed concern for the victims of clergy abuse, but what about the potential future victims of Democratic Party Politician abuse as the Democratic party intends on decriminalizing sex with children and wants to count pederasts as a protected class in Hate Crimes Legislation, here, and the vote count, here.

Never mind that, in a strange parallel, it is the German politician, Sabina Leuthesser, who is attacking the Catholic Church in Germany, like the Democratic Party in the United States, a party for the normalization of sex with children. Now you might not think that Jeff Anderson would have anything to do with this, but it was, after all, his party and co-religionists in Germany who are promoting the normalization of sex with children. We say this because Mr. Anderson has given a portion of the millions (according to Bill Donahue), to the various extremely liberal candidates and committees of the Democratic Party, here, as his contributions approach $60,000 in the year 2008.

Mr. Anderson professes a love for "spiritual" things and as a baptized Lutheran who was once married to a Catholic, indeed, he sits amidst what looks like a religious arts and furnishings shop (or pirate's trove) at his St. Paul office, it probably serves him well to soften his image by an appeal to the vague spiritual confessions held by so many people who'll be susceptible to his misleading and frankly mendacious account of the Pope Benedict's involvement in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee with Father Lawrence Murphy who was suspended from priestly duties in 1985 when he was dismissed from the St. John's School for the Deaf about which, he again wrongfully declares, that then Cardinal Ratzinger attempted to cover it up.

Unsatisfactory Results

If the quality of Mr. Anderson's efforts as a public relations man is any reflection on his legal abilities, it would be easy to see why he was outmaneuvered (deliberately?) at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville, Minnesota where he stage managed his confrontation with what he called centuries of "secrecy" and abuse of power.

We wonder why Mr. Anderson doesn't do more to chase the pederasts in the party he supports with the money he gains, but what of his effectiveness in dealing with pederasts in the past? Well, at St. John's Abbey in Collegeville where he began, the arrangement he helped forge there is no longer effectively in place and the very liberal Benedictines, who shares many of his political believes and those of the Democratic Party, are no longer in place. The 10 or so credibly accused pederasts at St. John's are free to roam the globe, despite the false claims of "restriction". One of the priests, Father Dunstan Morse, has even appeared in photographs with acclaimed author Kathleen Norris as a consultant to her book, Cloister Walk, here(pdf) and in her more recent book, Acedia and Me, here (pdf). It might be easy to see how those on the outside might view Mr. Anderson's legal work as uninspiring.

Well, the Mexican Government was certainly unimpressed with Mr. Anderson and David Clohessy's efforts, as they were barred for five years from entering Mexico when they attempted to serve the Archbishop of Mexico City.

If it weren't for all of the lawsuits he's filed against them over the years, considering the non-enforceable agreement he made with him and the fact that none of the perpetrators went to jail. It might be easy to see how they were in collusion together; perpetuating the problem, rather than adverse parties as we might suppose if we believed what was in the pages of Pinchy Sulzberger's New York Times.

Sunday, January 24, 2010

Communist Tim Robbins at St. John's Abbey

St. Cloud Times


College of St. Benedict/St. John’s University Fine Arts Programming is using the upcoming theater production of “The Trial of the Catonsville Nine” as an opportunity to reflect on a historic event that has close ties to the community.

“The Trial of the Catonsville Nine” follows the 1968 trial of two Catholic priests and seven fellow Catholic activists who committed an act of civil disobedience in protest of the war in Vietnam. The act galvanized the national protest movement.

The trial has close ties to the university through religion, and the Central Minnesota area has close ties to the trial through former St. Cloud resident George Mische, who was one of the nine and later a St. Cloud City Council member.

“Clearly the trial was born out of an anti-war statement and movement, but I think it’s too simple just to look at one side,” said Brian Jose, executive director of Fine Arts Programming. “I really want people to understand what was going on at the time.”

The Actors’ Gang, a Los Angeles-based theater company run by actor Tim Robbins, will perform “The Trial of the Catonsville Nine” at 8 p.m. Friday and Saturday at the Stephen B. Humphrey Theater at St. John’s University, Collegeville.

For the week leading up to the production, Fine Arts Programming has organized a series of events and discussions to give students and community members a sense of what it was like to be on campus during the Vietnam War.

Saturday, January 23, 2010

St. John's Abbey and Planned Parenthood: Partners in Education

A home of peacenik activists, homosexual didacts, religious indifferentists and the most pernicious falsehoods of the modern age, this modernist Monastery, once one of the world's largest, shows its commitment to the spirit of the age by hosting Planned Parenthood to delude their students further than they already are. Actually, a quick poll would reveal that very few of the matriculants of this school are encumbered with the Catholic Faith, given that they hire actively homosexual faculty members and promote homosexuality, is it any wonder that it is by design that this is the case?

It's nice that even the Neo-cons at Catholic Culture are starting to take notice. It might suprise them that Father Marx and the Abbey's relationship wasn't a friendly one at a certain time:

In 1972-- nine years before he founded Human Life International-- Father Paul Marx founded the Human Life Center at St. John’s University in Minnesota. Last year, the College of Saint Benedict and Saint John’s University hosted “representatives from the Planned Parenthood clinic” to “discuss their HIV and STI [sexually-transmitted infection] services. They will also talk about high risk behavior, the testing process, and confidentiality.”

The event was sponsored by the schools’ Global AIDS Awareness Organization.

Founded in 1913 and 1857, the College of Saint Benedict and Saint John’s University have 2,110 students (all undergraduates) and 2,063 students (1,938 undergraduate) respectively. [They also have a College Preparatory Highschool]

Link to original at Catholic Culture...

Wednesday, January 6, 2010

"Pray, Tell", Collegeville's Answer to Liturgical Restoration


The good folks at Commonweal are talking about a campy new blog from Collegeville and Liturgical Press called, "Pray, Tell". Perhaps it should be "Prey".

The Jesuit editor of America, Father James Martin SJ, thinks it's worth a look. He goes more deeply, if less revealingly than he ought, to discuss the blog's connection with Worship:

The blog chiefs quote from the first issue of Orate, Fratres, one of the great liturgical magazines (now Worship) that helped foster the liturgical renewal that led to the Second Vatican Council's document Sacrosanctum Concilium. "Our general aim is develop a better understanding of the spiritual import of the liturgy. … [We hope] that many persons may find in the liturgy the first answer to the intimate need of their souls for a closer contact and union with the spiritual and the divine.” The new blog, the progeny of Orate, Fratres, is nothing if not candid




The New Liturgical Movement reports on it as well, and is less enthusiastic, some of the commenters note the unwillingness of the moderator to allow dissent, despite the Blog's claims of "openness".

What NLM doesn't tell you, and what Father Martin above omits to say is the connection of the Blog's print publication, Worship (Previously Orate Fratres when it was founded by Fr. Virgil Michel in 1929 at St. John's Abbey in Minnesota), to one of its editors, a credibly accused homosexual Fr. Dunstan Moorse, or one of the notorious and early collaborators who designed the cover art for the first issue of the magazine, Eric Gill, whose own revolutionary liturgical efforts are no less suspicious than the current sponsors of "Prey, Tell".

Sunday, December 27, 2009

Ms. Magazine Features Sex-Friendly Event at Modernist Monastery

Archbishop Sheen once said that, "Dirt is nothing more than matter which is in the wrong place." Someone should apply that maxim to Catholic education in Minnesota. Not only do they have in place a sex education program which they insist which will prevent if not indemnify the Archdiocese from future lawsuits, but they apply other phony policies designed to pay homage to a small segment of concerned laity who cry foul when their parish priest or college hosts things contrary to Catholic teaching.

Archbishop Nienstedt claims that there are specific guidelines against those using Church facillities as speakers who are not harmonious with Church teachings either in their former written works or deeds.

St. John's University, in Collegeville, according to an article in Ms. Magazine, in addition to having some serious allegations against it for being a haven for indecent behavior and heresy has reinforced that reputation recently by hosting a conference about men's role in feminism. Two activist filmmakers Byron Hurt with a "Hip-Hop " approach and Nancy Schwartzman want to create a "sex friendly" approach to rape prevention that deals with issues of race, class, gender and sexuality. The films contain sexually explicit material and surely have no place on the campus of a Catholic institution.

Gender justice filmmakers Byron Hurt (Hip-Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes) and Nancy Schwartzman (Where Is Your Line?) were on hand to screen videos about pop culture, sexuality, masculinity and assault. Speakers emphasized accountability, authenticity and continued hard work, and no one could ignore the heat generated by unresolved issues of race, class, gender and sexuality. The second plenary session was interrupted by angry shouts from the floor by men tired of carrying collective guilt for other men’s violence. Several attendees conceded that the movement has yet to figure out constructive ways of grappling with men’s power and their fears in order to work effectively in partnership with women.


These endless and prurient discussions are guaranteed to titilate and the only thing that they lack for is a justification, for it is impossible to justify this talk which is aimed at further corrupting the students and leading them to perdition.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009

New Details on Claims against Modernist Monastery

It's going to be difficult to take a case on now that the perpetrator is dead, but the presence of systemic and institutional abuse has been part of Novice formation since Abbot Eidenschenk would inspect his Novices in the nude as part of their counseling.

A deceased former Hastings area resident and priest, who was a counselor at St. John's University in Collegeville, Minn., for many years, is named in two civil lawsuits filed in Stearns County alleging sexual misconduct as far back as the early 1970s.

By: Jane Lightbourn, The Hastings Star-Gazette

A deceased former Hastings area resident and priest, who was a counselor at St. John's University in Collegeville, Minn., for many years, is named in two civil lawsuits filed in Stearns County alleging sexual misconduct as far back as the early 1970s.

The first lawsuit was filed by Jeremiah “Jerry” McCarthy, now living in New York. He accuses the college and the church officials of knowing in the mid-1960s that the Rev. Bruce Wollmering, who died earlier this year at the age of 68, had been “sexually inappropriate” with a child.

McCarthy was a 16-year-old preparatory student at St. John's in 1971 when he met with Wollmering for academic and psychological testing and spiritual counseling. He said the sexual contact with Wollmering occurred in Wollmering's office.

According to the first lawsuit, McCarthy accuses Wollmering of having a long history of sexual misconduct with students and the college of being aware of it.

The second lawsuit, filed Dec. 16, names Wollmering, two other individuals and the Order of St. Benedict, charging them with sexual misconduct (or being aware of the misconduct) against a then-student at the university.

The suit alleges Wollmering, the Rev. Finnian McDonald and Brother John Kelly sexually violated a 19-year-old student (identified only as John Doe in the lawsuit) and that Catholic officials knew or should have known of the incidents.

Specifically, the lawsuit charges that from 1984 to 1986, through his “role of psychologist, counselor and/or spiritual advisor,” Wollmering “deceived” Doe into “engaging in illegal sexual contact with him under the guise of providing religious instruction and emotional counseling.”

The lawsuit also alleges McDonald, while heading the academic advisory program, sexually exploited Doe, and that Kelly, while a faculty member engaged in illegal sexual contact with Doe.

According to the lawsuit, Doe was “raised in a devout Roman Catholic family and therefore developed great admiration, trust, reverence and respect for the Roman Catholic Church and its agents.”

The lawsuit indicated Wollmering provided spiritual and emotional guidance to Doe. But that, beginning in 1984, “Wollmering deceived Plaintiff John Doe into engaging in sexual contact.” The sexual contact continued for approximately two years, according to the lawsuit.

“That a student gets sexually abused by three clerics in three years at St. John's shows that the recklessness, deceit, corruption of church officials was very widespread,” said attorney Patrick Noaker of the St. Paul law firm of Jeffrey Anderson and Associates, who is representing the alleged victim. “We're grateful for this young man and each of the dozens of others who have helped expose dangerous Benedictine clerics.”

The suits seeks a jury trial and unspecified damages. Doe, now in his 40s, lives on the west coast.

After the first civil lawsuit was filed in Stearns County (Dec. 9), St. John's Abbey released a statement, indicating its position. “St. John's takes the issue of sexual misconduct very seriously, and over many years, has worked to ensure that policies and procedures on human rights are followed and enforced,” the statement said. [The inevitable pusilanimous disclaimer]

Link to original...