.- While a veteran Vatican journalist has suggested that the 2019 Synod of Bishops from the Amazonian basin might open the door to the appointment of women as deacons, recent comments from the Vatican’s doctrinal chief imply that is not likely to be the case.
In a July 1 blog post, veteran Vatican journalist Sandro Magister argued that Pope Francis this year has made three major “u-turns” on key topics, noting that the pontiff has not been clear on whether the “reversals” are “definitive and sincere.”
Magister cited Francis' about-face on Chilean Bishop Juan Barros, who until recently led the Diocese of Osorno, but who resigned in June in wake of the country's massive clerical abuse scandal and accusations of cover-up.
AMDG
29 comments:
PF has a clear goal. The "smoke and mirrors" is only to hide the true socialist agenda.
They were there for the first few centuries of the Church's existence so they are returning not just arriving. There's no need for any adjustment except in the minds of some people and amendments to Canon Law.
Not in liturgical rôles with cult member robes, swaying to and fro to rhythmic samba beats they weren’t.
You're of course free to change the historical narrative in your own mind if that makes you feel better.
Read some real Church history, old chap. There's lots of it too, if you have ever develop the will and intellectual stamina.
A few fragmentary inscriptions on funeral steles and frescoes open to interpretations. Lots to go on.
I've never seen a group of people so hell bent on destroying themselves. Faithful Catholics are the ones paying the bills. Bring in these women pretending to be men and you will hear the sound of wallets closing all over the world. There won't be any money to support these lesbians in their delusional fantasy world. Incidentally, I gave nothing to the heretic's Peter's Pence this past Sunday
Hello John,
I dearly hope you've been reading something other than Zagano's work on this.
Yes, there's both Scriptural and Patristic contemporary evidence for the existence of "deaconesses." It seems to have been almost entirely in the East, and appears to vanish from recorded references after the first couple of centuries; they appear to have had a special function involving ministry to women converts. The last papal study on this was done by the ITC in 2002 ("From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles"), and it reached the obvious conclusions, given the evidence we have:
1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;
2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially in the teaching of the Magisterium.
...
We do not know what the *new* commission will say on this - it's packed with a few known supporters of liberalization on this point, like Zagano - but in the end, it's up to Francis what he will do, and the tradition could not possibly support anything beyond some non-ordained ministry - which would in any case be a very bad idea.
The “deaconesses” of the classical world sound a lot like nuns and the ones who had liturgical roles were abbesses.
Cardinal Mueller has a book on this subject; Ignatius Press. Excellent. They were never ordained.
@John or is it Joan, according to real church history the women were called decons because of their service role in teaching women the catechism. The historical evidence is that they had no role in the liturgy or the Mass. We still have them today, they are called nuns and sisters.
For those who have condemned the SSPX, they will soon be the only island of orthodoxy in a sea of heretics
Yeah, I'd go Protty SSPX too if I were upset with the True Faith and wanted to "do my own thing" like Zwingli, Calvin, Luther, Lefebvre!
Hey, the state of the True Church is largely deplorable. Still, the Catholic Religion is the True Church and no SSPX diy religion is gonna' take Her place.
Obediently find solid orthopraxis and make it better, protect it, but don't become Protestant just because you're rightly upset about idiocy among Catholics today.
@ Anon 4:00
If you think that FSSPX is protestant while believing, praying and acting as Church has always done (i.e. tradition), think again.
Rab
SSPX has been reconciled. Maybe you missed that?
Thanks!
They had roles in Armenian liturgies and in the East, like baptizing adult females, but these were all female religious.
I saw a documentary on the early Catholic Church (before the year 500 ad.), which stated in Rome there were "deaconesses", but they had no liturgical function. They visited the sick, they baptized the dying or those unable to find a priest, and they instructed people in the Faith. The key word is instructed....not preached. There's a difference. Sounds like the modern day catechesis classes in many parishes.
What the rad liberal feminists and like minded priests will hate though, is that these "deaconesses" lived in community like nuns, wore a distinctive dress, and were addressed by the priests and people as "sister".....not "Reverend", or "Deacon" like many would have us believe.
They were not nuns in the strict sense because they didn't take the three vows of poverty....but they were celibate. Nor did they follow a Holy Rule. But they lived together in what could be called a convent, and had a designated superior.
What a kick in the head to the femminists who want married women deacons who perform functions similar to priests and claim that that was the way in the early Church. They're going by the way they want it, not by the way it was. LOL!!
Damian Malliapalli
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY
I gave 5 cents, otherwise clogging up my wallet. Don't really want to support Curial sodomites and embezzlers filled with hatred for Catholicism.
Tancred clueless....get a clue!
Therefore, until the status of the SSPX is regularized by the Holy See, the bishops and priests of the Society remain suspended from the exercise of Holy Orders. Their celebration of the sacraments are valid but illicit, except for those sacraments requiring jurisdiction (Penance, Marriage), which are both invalid and illicit. This means that sacramental absolution by a Society priest is invalid for lack of jurisdiction, a requirement in all circumstances but the danger of death (canon 976). Similarly, lacking jurisdiction, marriages witnessed by SSPX clergy would also be invalid, for defect of the "Catholic form", which requires witnessing by one's bishop or proper pastor or a dispensations for other circumstances (canon 1108).
Anonymous:
Believe me, if I had a choice between going to an SSPX priest for confession and receiving the true Sacrament, or attending a true TLM over the "make it up as we go along" Novus Ordo, or reading and listening to SSPX over my own pastor, bishop, or Pope Bergoglio as to what the Catholic Faith is....I would follow the SSPX. All this stuff about the SSPX being regularized, and that their still suspended and their celebration of the Sacraments is illicit due to lack of jurisdiction and not in communion with the Holy See is a pile of b.s.
No disrespect to you, Anonymous....it's just that that is nonsense.
If 99.9% of dioceses were faithfully Catholic and fostered the teachings and traditions of the Faith....then what you say would be true. But they are not, and do not. If the Holy See(Vatican,Pope, etc), were faithfully Catholic and fostered the teachings and traditions of our Faith in accord with the Deposit of the Faith, then yes, what you say would be 100% true and valid. But the Holy See(Vatican, Pope Francis, Curia, etc), are not faithful and do not foster our Faith. Therefore, they, rather than the SSPX are teaching illicit, and even immoral practices. Seeing that the present day Vatican and Holy See, and nearly every diocese has so departed from the Faith, what faithful and tradition mided Catholic would wish to continue obeying error and being lead into sin, while the SSPX (which may be, in the eyes of many "illicit", nevertheless continues to celebrate the Sacraments and profess the Catholic Faith as it has been according to our traditions down thru the ages until now? Not many.
To make it quick, with 1 simple example. Nine months ago I was in France on my job for a few weeks. Naturally I went to Mass on Sunday (sometimes I went 2-3x a week) I went to a chapel operated by the Fraternity of Saint Peter, but there was also 3 nearby churches that used the Novus Ordo, and alittle further, 1 chapel and priory of the SSPX. On the last Sunday I was in France (what was in the USA our Labor Day weekend), I went to the Fraternity chapel for 7:00 am Mass. Despite the time, it was packed....mostly with young families. I took a look at 1 Novus Ordo parish (built in the late 1880's) to see their Mass at 10:00. The large church, which could probably hold 1,000 faithful had about 30 in attendance. Earlier in my stay in France, I had visited an SSPX parish. It was filled to the doors, even more so than the Fraternity of St. Peter parish. Someone told me that the Novus Ordo parish had had a lot more attending 10-15 years ago( which included the terms of Benedict XV and tail end of JP II) but now with their liberal bishop(in since 2015) , mostly no one goes.
Morale--- the faithful know what's genuine/holy/traditional, and what's suspect/phoney. Their not stupid enough to choose the later over the former just because the Bishop/Pope says it's so.
Damian Malliapalli
Catholics have been authorized to go to confession to them by Bergoglio, for example, and Catholics have been told by Ecclesia Dei that they may attend. Do you larp on line with a Mitre and episcopal robe while you declaim real Catholics?
No wonder Kopronymos was sacked from his teaching job. His main sources of knowledge are enclosed female cousins in Rome, satellite photos of St Peter's Sq, 'I read somewhere' and 'someone told me.' Undoubtedly, a cutting edge 'New Evangelization' lad.
Ciao Clement C,
Since you don’t understand me in English, I thought maybe you’ll understand in another language. I speak afew, so take your pick Buddy Man,
Suppongo che dovrò spiegarmi ancora una volta perché non mi hai capito la prima volta in inglese, quindi forse capirai in italiano, francese e portoghese perché ovviamente il tuo inglese è carente.
Je vais répéter encore une fois pour que vous puissiez comprendre dans une langue autre que l'anglais si vous ne maîtrisez pas l'anglais. Ici nous allons en français:
Je n'ai pas été renvoyé de mon poste d'enseignant. Je démissionne pour des raisons morales dont vous ne savez rien!
Eu vi que você nunca responde a outro post, apenas às minhas contribuições, e sempre com uma observação insultuosa ou difamatória. Você não escuta quando eu explico. Tudo o que você quer fazer é lutar. Originalmente, eu ia ignorar você, porque talvez você desistisse e desaparecesse. Mas então eu reconsiderei e pensei comigo mesma, por que eu deixaria um insulto de baixa vida e postaria comentários falsos sobre mim e sobre meu personagem em um site que milhares.
Eu ia te ignorar, mas estou farto da sua merda. Você está mentalmente doente. Você é provavelmente um padre liberal imbecil ... Eu não tenho respeito por eles!
Try to figure out what I said, Clement, Buddy Man. The grammar might not be 100%, but I'm sure you'll get my point :)
Damian Malliapalli
Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli did not have a valid mass or confession. Pope Francis has said the SSPX have both.
Thanks for the clarification!
Mr Tizpi also does Voodoo.
First the deaconesses of old where drawn from consecrated virgins and consecrated widows. They could not baptise but assist women (in a time baptism was in the nude) they taught women, they visited the sick and aged women and provided charity service to them. they could also bring communion to shut in women. Remember this was a time when it was not considered respectable for men to visit a womans house. They also accompanied priests on visits to women's houses to say the ill or elderly. I don't see a need for deaconesses to be brought back. Why, we have religious sisters, and consecrated virgins. I am a consecrated virgin. No need to dublicate the work already being done. Now for the eastern rites who do not have active religious then this might be an option for them to provide charity assistance. By the way they lived with other deaconesses or with their families usually back in the day.
By the way female deacons are not possible. It is NOT possible to ordain women to holy orders. Sorry but the libs cannot get the answer NO means NO.
"Not possible"? They were therefore they are not only 'possible,' they are about to be reinstated in Catholic Church ministry.
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