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| Pope Washing to feet of Juvenile Delinquents of Different Religions in 2013 |
Edit: who cares about liturgical norms and rubrics?
(Rome) On Holy Thursday, Pope Francis will visit the Roman prison Rebibbia and wash and kiss the feet of twelve prisoners. After the Holy Thursday liturgy in the youth prison in Rome in 2013, and a center for the disabled 2014, Pope Francis will visit the great Roman prison Rebibbia on April 2, 2015. There are pre-trial prisoners and prisoners serving sentences or under five years.
At 5:30pm he will celebrate the Lord's Super in the prison church. It takes place in the framework of the foot washing, which dates back to the direct model of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper.
Pope is to wash the feet of twelve male and female
As the chaplain of Rebibbia, Don Sandro Spriano, told Vatican Radio, the Pope will wash the feet of twelve male and female. "We are very happy that the Pope has accepted our invitation which we have spoken of at a meeting at a Mass in Santa Marta last September. He told us that he would like, if possible, to come to us on Holy Thursday. We will repeat the experience of three years ago with Pope Ratzinger in a different context and with another person," said Kaplan.
"For the prisoners it is certainly an important sign of attention by the Church of Rome to their situation. We always say that they are the most unhappy. To show them that they are children of God who are loved by the Church and especially of the Pope, is very very important for them. Moreover, in this celebration, male and female prisoners will come together for the first time. The occupants of the women's prison will be brought to us. This has not been done before.It is a beautiful thing," said Don Spriano.
Meeting with Benedict XVI. in other settings still vividly remembered
"I have vivid memories of the meeting with Benedict XVI. because it was a dialogue with questions and answers of the Pope himself at the time. It was a truly fraternal meeting," said the chaplain.
From politicians he expects that "the prison is simply not a place of punishment and revenge by society on those who commit crimes, but - as required by the Constitution - is a place of rehabilitation and reintegration, a basis in order to live better when you come out," said Don Sandro Spriano, the prison chaplain Rebibbia in Rome, where Pope Francis will visit the prisoners on April 2, on Holy Thursday.
Concerns: overshadowing the institution of the Eucharist and the priesthood by reduction to the social aspect
The Lord's Supper is one of the few important events in the church year in which the popes have traditionally celebrated in the cathedral church of the bishop of Rome, San Giovanni in Laterano, the mother of all churches. Considering the change of location, which Pope Francis is making on this day, there are significant concerns within the Church. This includes the discomfort that the Pope celebrates a central Liturgy of the Paschal Triduum, the three holy days, again excluding the faithful.
For a critique, see the articles gesture spectacle - After Washing Prisoners' Feet Pope Washes Disabled of "different religions' feet and Some questions about Pope Francis - responses from Vatican spokesman Father Lombardi .
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
image: Messa in Latino
image: Messa in Latino
Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
AMDG
100 comments:
Mandatumgate III ready for circles of spin in 3..2...1...
Why does this not surprise me? This Pope seems to have an aversion to meaningful solid liturgy. He (at least I thought) is supposed to be reenacting Christ washing the feel of His Apostles, which is profoundly meaningful, but he doesn't seem to get that. Making a spectacle out of washing the feet of whoever as long as they are in his book 'marginalized' is all that matters.
Sometimes I am so very saddened by this Pope. Sometimes I'm angry, but sometimes I am so very sad. Lord be with us, have Mercy on us.
He just. Can't. help himself.
I think that Jesus, who was abandoned by the Apostles when he needed them most, who was denied three times by the Apostate Peter, who was crucified along with two criminals, would be immensely proud of Pope Francis.
Jesus was abandoned by the Apostles, Peter apostatized three times and he was crucified between two criminals.
I have no reason to doubt that Jesus would approve of Francis' intentions for this Easter.
Ever mindful of the best photo op for the secular media.
Except he's violating the rubrics. Who cares about that? I know that Collegeville probably loves gay clown liturgy, but God approves of true obedience.
He is in a position of authority to exempt himself from the rubrics which he has and probably will continue to do so.
Oh, I get it. He doesn't have to follow the rules.
Don't be coy, Tancred, you know that the Pope is the Supreme Legislator. Take a look at the revision of the entire Code under JP II and the changes to Canons by Benedict XVI. One of his changes to Canon Law back in 2009 was contained in a Motu Proprio "Omnibus in Mentem.' In that, Benedict detached Diaconate from the Sacrament of Holy Orders and made it clear that there is no Sacramental 'Character' conferred in Diaconate and that it is simply the ministry of word, altar and charity. In the NO, grand mothers do all this and do it very well indeed.
On Holy Thursday at the Last Supper, with all of the Apostles in attendance, Jesus made the New Covenant, Instituted the Priesthood and the Eucharist. Jesus also exposed Judas of Iscariot, as the betrayer. By having the Holy Thursday Mass, at a prison and washing prisoners and women's feet, that is putting respect for people before the respect for Jesus and His New Covenant, Priesthood,and The Eucharist..It is blurring the meaning of Holy Thursday and The Last Supper! There is absolutely no reason , for the Bishop of Roma, to have Holy Thursday Mass at a prison, nor anywhere else, except at Saint John Lateran Cathedral. Jesus deserves the best, after all, He sent two Apostles ahead to prepare the Upper-Room. That means a Very Special Event.. Saint John Lateran has always been the Pope's Cathedral and that is where Holy Thursday's Mass should be celebrated..
If the Pope wants to have a special Mass and kiss prisoners feet and Muslim women's feet or women's feet in general, he could pick another day. It won't make any difference to them.
Pope to the mirror: "Mirror, mirror on the wall, you know I'm the humblest of them all."
At this point, I surprised Bergoglio still wears white. Before he's done, it wouldn't surprise me to see him start wearing the black uniform of a humble parish priest.
This showy humility is evidence of a man with immense pride not humility. Earlier Popes had none of my humility, he says implicitly with his public actions, except that is not humility. A Pope who makes considerable effort to flout tradition rather than defend the Magisterium, who utters some very dubious statements, might consider doing something else to occupy his time. Benedict XVI at least rowed back on his aggressive Modernism at the time of V2. Francis' pride makes him reckless, and as the saying goes, comes before a fall.
I wonder how long it will be before the gals, both male and femaile, who like to play church and are amused by how they variously intimidate and hoodwink people with spurious arguments are going to find their deceit and malignancy splash back on them... I hope I live to see that judgment. I would not want to be them when it comes..
"memyself" = such and expressive name for one so humble yourselfyourself.
The washing of the Apostles feet by Christ was the institution of the Priesthood ,with the additional lesson that they must be cleansed before approaching the Altar and the Blessed Sacrament,it was not just an exercise in humility . Pope Francis can wash feet in public every day of the week if he so desires ,but on Holy Thursday ,it should be priests in imitation of Christ.The subtle message been given is that all are called to Priesthood ,male ,females and even those who do not believe in Christ.
Liked your "Mirror, Mirror..."
But to be serious for a moment, if the man really were humble, he would say the Mass in his own Church according to the rubrics, and wash the feet of his cardinals and bishops, without comment. Instead he has to act like Gaybriel writes.
Hey Gabby....I guess some animals are more equal than others.
aaaand comment of the day goes to Barnum!
Gaybriel, what are you talking about? There are no female deacons. Eucharistic Ministresses, yes, priestesses/priests and deaconesses/deacons, no.
Why do I get this mental image of you as the adulteress getting stoned but telling Christ to go away?
The fact is that the Pope has the authority to change liturgical arrangements to suit his wishes and what he considers to be Christ-like behaviour. Clearly, washing the feet of law-breakers is part of this.
Read carefully what I actually wrote above. I will probably be a new experience in stead of shooting your mouth of with a string of stream of consciousness distortions.
Not sure if some people actually do not understand the liturgy. Without 'norms' we are reduced to clown Masses and Priests on the West Coast consecrating chocolate chip cookies and kool aid for Children's Masses. Oh yes, and don't forget liturgical dance Masses where some dancers are provocatively dressed and dances are questionable. Without 'norms' that's where it goes. Somehow I don't think that gives homage to the Lord of Lords
The descent into madness continues.
And I'm sorry, but a man KISSING the feet or men rather than just washing them is sick as well. Where in the hell did this sick homo-laden bizzaro thing come from?
To add to it women / girls and non non-Christian just makes it descend all the more down into the bowels of hell.
I think I have read this parody, pretty well verbatim, somewhere else, maybe in Mundabor, Zuhlsdorf or even The Remnant.
The narrative sure gets around, eh, TLM
Pope Francis has history, but not time, on his side in reform push (article from today)
The headline made me think of:
Revelation 12:12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
@Gabriel, Jesus said "He who has washed has no need but to wash his feet." In other words, one who is consecrated only needs continual repentance. Therefore, in keeping with that sybmolism of the foot washing, the pope ought to was the feet of some priests, or at least of faithful Catholics rather than murderers and rapists.
Who do you think has the Pope's ear?
What utter lies from Gabriel - the Pope does not have the authority to change the liturgy according to his desires. All papal authority is subject to the Deposit of Faith and the moral law. To do that which opposes these is unlawful, and evil.
To Gabriel: You are wrong. That is not Christ-like on Holy Thursday. Jesus did not visit prisoners on the eve of Holy Thursday.
Clearly, Jesus had His Last Supper. He had all twelve Apostle at the Last Supper. There were no prisoners , women nor any Muslims (since the Muslims did not exist until 600 years after Christianity, they did not exist during Christ's time). The Church knows what happened at The Last Supper because there were witnesses. Peter, John, Andrew Peter's Brother, James the Greatest, James the Lesser etc.etc.etc. Get Real. Jesus is Real and the Last Supper is still Real. It was even written down.
So what is the problem in understanding that this was when Jesus Instituted the Priesthood, the Eucharist, The New Covenant. It had nothing to do with washing layman's and prisoners feet., if that would have been the case, Jesus would have been on the steps outside of a synagogue in the crowd that was in Jerusalem for their Passover.. As we know for sure Jesus became the Lamb. The New Covenant was Instituted.
Why doesn't the Pope wash the prisoners feet for a photo op on Divine Mercy Sunday. Showing Mercy that he always speaks about. Mercy Sunday is the Sunday after Easter?
Rubrics don't come under the core beliefs of the Catholic Church or to its Moral Code.
Rubrics belong to ritual not the Creed.
But rubrics should nonetheless be informed by creed rather than haphazard. Gabriel, does your own religion of Judaism just make up its rubrics haphazardly or base them on its theology?
At the Last Supper, celebrated on Holy Thursday, Jesus washed the feet of the disciples. Peter objected and protested. Jesus said in response to Peter, 'If I do not wash you, you have nothing in common with me.'
Francis is doing the same to some others of God's children.
He ought to put on a long haired wig and cry crocodile tears, so he can wash the Muslims' feet with his tears and wipe them with his hair. That would surely please "Gabriel."
Gabriel, was that a typo? Concerning the Muslims I think you must have meant to write: Francis is doing the same to some others god's children.
I was referring to Francis washing the feet of prisoners who are also God's children.
I have not mentioned Muslims nor intended to one way or another.
Who said rubrics are haphazard? And, BTW, I am not Jewish but Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Twelve Apostles were.
Gabriel: They were Jews who believed in Jesus, but like Bergoglio himself you are a Argentinian Jew who believes in the Talmud not in Jesus.
"Who said rubrics are haphazard?" You did. You said the pope can change them any time he wants on a whim, and apparently without even bothering to do so in writing!
"Without 'norms' we are reduced to clown Masses..." Or you end with Bergoglio lighting a menorah with a bunch of rabbis in a cathedral and praying a Hebrew prayer for the Messiah to come finally for the first time and wipe out the Gentiles and rebuild the Temple so that they can offer animal sacrifices. That's what Bergoglio used to do in your Cathedral in Argentina, right Gabriel?
Have you followed the Ecumenical exploits of St John Paul II?
As for animal sacrifices, you clearly have the advantage in that department.
The 'whim' bit is your invention. You should be conscious of that.
And, BTW, you can tell your delusionary friend that I am not an Argentinian Jew or any other Jew for that matter, but thank you for thinking of me.
However, if Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Twelve Apostles were Argentinian, then they would be Argentinian Jews.
What do you mean by saying I clearly have the advantage in the animal sacrifice department? Was this some sort of jibe about how you, like Bergoglio, believe we evolved from monkeys and therefore the both of you believe that Jesus Himself was only an animal sacrifice?
The Liturgical revolution began with abuses, and has ended with the practical destruction of the Liturgy. What was called for in the Vatican II documents was almost universally ignored, but it provided a significant pretext and justification for all manner of evils in its name.
and funny enough, that goes for Gabriel too.
I believe the Holy Father is doing something beautiful following in the footsteps of Pope Benedict. It is incorrect to say that the faithful are excluded from worshiping with the Pope. He will lead the Mass of the Oils and all the other ceremonies of Holy Week for all who are free to join him in prayer .
The men and women in prison have excluded themselves from society and are not free to worship in public. They have committed serious crimes but they are still part of God's church. Like the Good Shepherd, His Holiness is seeking out these lost sheep.
We must hope and pray that his visit to the gaol will contribute to the prisoners rehabilitation. The gift of the Mass is the greatest gift he can bring to them. 'Lord, when did we see you sick or in prison and go to see you'?
The message is that we should wash one another's feet. cf St John's Gospel, 'I give you an example that you may copy'
Gabriel: On the contrary, Omnium in Mentem actually reinforces the sense of Canon 109 para 1, which clearly states the Diaconate as one of the sacramental orders.
People who are shocked and dismayed by this man Francis are naïve. I read alittle about him while he was in Argentina. He did the same kind of nonsense there, so it should come as no surprise that he is just being himself while he has his short term as Pope.
The problem is, I read of no Cardinals or bishops or others refuting him. The very idea that this Pope would consider selling off Castel Gandolfo is not only a violation of valid judgment, but also extremely self serving, hypocritical, and selfish. It's as if he is saying, "look how humble I am, look how good I am". It is supremely selfish because he is denying the possibility of Castel Gandolfo's use for other Popes.
The fact that no cardinals seem to be rising up to block this man's misguided and extremely egoistic gestures is shameful, almost nauseating.
How ironic it is that we observe the 2nd anniversary of the election of Pope Francis today, Friday, Marcy 13th. Friday the 13th has always signified both evil and very bad luck.
We got both in Francis on March 13, 2013 !!
I think Rorate said he'd be worse than Schönborn.
Uncountable are the masses of neo-caths who defend each and every single novelty of Our Pope as aught but a faithful following of Our Lord and Saviour; He's the Pope and he can do what he wants
Of course, there is the troubling reality that if he is acting like Jesus, then that means that every single Pope who preceded him was not acting like Jesus.
Holy Thursday Mass is concentrated on the institution of the Eucharist and the Priesthood and the actions of Our Pope are guaranteed to detract from that ontological truth.
Now, one can try and spin that truth however tone may but that spin only leaves he who defends novelty so dizzy that they can not stand on solid moral ground.
To be serious or sad, as you prefere, he did the same things when in BA if you have a look at some videotube of his masses, it's always the same clown parade, the difference is that then he was an unknown argie priest, now he ought to be the Pope, chief of RCC, successor of St. Peter and so on.....who am I to judge? I'm none, but I'd like that this guy I never liked since his first apparition fom the Loggia, did his job and expressed Catholic teachings, as ever faithful to the Holy Gospel.....am I asking too much? BTW he's worse than Borja and Schonborn that's for sure....God bless+
There must be something deep in the College of Cardinals, and the Vatican itself that is extremely evil that would allow for this person to be elected Pope. By not objecting to Francis (especially in his desire to sell Casel Gandolfo, etc) perhaps Pope Benedict XVI himself is evil...to just sit back, say nothing, and let things like this happen.
"Have you followed the Ecumenical exploits of St John Paul II?"
To my great regret, I did.
I have the sense that not many folks who frequent this blog are fans of those exploits.
Gabriel,
"The fact is that the Pope has the authority to change liturgical arrangements to suit his wishes and what he considers to be Christ-like behaviour. Clearly, washing the feet of law-breakers is part of this."
The Pope can indeed dispense with the law - certainly in a case like this. I do hope that everyone realizes that.
Whether it is a wise or prudent idea is another question entirely.
I am all for popes visiting prisons. Francis is far from the first pope to do so. Maundy Thursday Mass is not a fitting time for it; the result is that the priestly nature - a constant in the tradition, East and West (given that only Apostles were present at the Last Supper) - of the foot-washing/mandatum is now being lost. A priest washing a woman's feet adds a particular scandal, one which would have been appalling to any of the Church Fathers and, for that matter, pretty much every Pope up until now.
'The election of Card. Bergoglio was a supreme failure of the college of Cadinals'.Fromrome.wordpress.com.
Gabriel, you could not possibly be so stupid, so you are being disingenuous. Everything, most especially the source and summit of the Faith, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, must conform to the Deposit of Faith and the Natural Moral Law. Otherwise, it is opposed to them, and therefore, not of God, not of the Holy Faith, but evil.
There is nothing in the Eucharist Pope Francis celebrates that is contrary to Faith.
And what has the Natural Law have to do with it? More precisely, what particular aspect of the Natural Law are you talking about?
Bergoglio can kiss his 2014 Christmas Card and you know right where I mean!
Another gratuitous assertion.
Jacobi,
You are wrong. If you had looked at what Pope Benedict declared in his Motu Proprio you would notice that he clearly distinguished between the ordination of the priest to sacramental 'in persona Christi' and the Deacon is not. The ordination to diaconate is not sacramental but an official authorization to exercise the ministries of Word, Altar and Charity all of which non clerics, women and men, perform in the NO
Athelstane,
If you follow to its conclusions the logic of the tradition about only men (the Twelve) were present at the Last Supper and therefore only male feet were washed, then you would have to say that only bishops should be present at the Commemoration of the Lord's Supper.
If Catholicism is by some kind of divine obligation to continue forming its theology out of an undifferentiated Patristic semiotic then the Church will be forever trapped in the treadmill of free association.
Example: Clearly Pius V did not feel obliged to include the Anaphora of Mari and Addai in the Unforgettable Mass of 1570.
Gabriel: you must have heard of the dictum: "lex credenti = lex orandi" (excuse my latin). So the liturgy cannot be altered haphazardly, or at will of any Pope. Even the Novus Ordo Mass, had to be approved by an Ecumenical Council. You are probably an infiltrated protestant or "novus ordus" trying to to wreck a Real Catholic blog.
Charles Dupuy
"Lex credenti = lex orandi"; so the liturgy cannot be altered at will of any Pope. Even the Novus Ordo mass had to be approved by an Ecumenical Council.
According to revelation 13 11 and 13 5, we have 18 months more to go of this blasphemy .
And then rome will become the seat of the antichrist.
Have you heard of Pius XII's reform of the old Mass of the pre-Sanctified? He didn't need the authority of an Ecumenical Council.
Some serious study of Sacramental theology and the history of theology will confirm this.
When it did come to the development of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, the 2800 bishops of the Second Ecumenical Council including Paul VI who was one of them, understood perfectly well what they were doing when they set aside the Mass of Pius V as having fulfilled its function and established the vernacular as normative for the Universal Church.
He can wash anybody's feet any time he wants. In fact, instead of running off his mouth daily, he ought to just wash everyone's feet. But at Easter time it kind of makes more sense to give the clergy priority over prisoners, and to celebrate his mass in the Vatican? From a Catholic perspective it does anyway, but not from a Community Organizer perspective I guess.
Gabriel,
HereticsRUs.org just called. They want you back!! You have got to be the most smug troll online.
No we don't want Gabriel either. We've decided to trade him to the Moslems.
Sincerely,
HereticsRUs.org
Maybe you could share how you calculated that?
Gabriel: Yes I have heard of the reform of Pious XII of the liturgy of Good Friday, by none other than his assistant Aniballe Bugnini. However this reform does not in any way alter the principle of "lex orandi = lex credenti". What is more, have you heard of the perpetual indult by Pious V to the Missal codified at the Council of Trent?
You say that this Missal had fullfiled its function¡¡ Why¡, it took almost 2000 years for VII to discover this¡
A wise decision. I'm sure you will get the better deal.
revelation 13 has 18 verses, in a chiastic arrangement
(ie they are not meant to be read top down, the order needs to be discerned, this technique is also to be found in daniel 7-12 and zechariah 12-14)
there are 8 verses relating to the antichrist
there are 8 verses relating to the false prophet
the 2 in the middle, 9 and 10, are neutral, they are a warning
these are the 8 verses that relate to the antichrist, the first beast:
1 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.
2 And the beast, which I saw, was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his own strength, and great power.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast.
4 And they adored the dragon, which gave power to the beast: and they adored the beast, saying: Who is like to the beast? and who shall be able to fight with him?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.
16 And he shall make all, both little and great, rich and poor, freemen and bondmen, to have a character in their right hand, or on their foreheads.
17 And that no man might buy or sell, but he that hath the character, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six.
these are the 8 verses that relate to the false prophet of the apocalyse, the second beast:
11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns, like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.
5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemies: and power was given to him to do *** 42 months ***.
6 And he opened his mouth unto blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation.
12 And he executed all the power of the former beast in his sight; and he caused the earth, and them that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose wound to death was healed.
13 And he did great signs, so that he made also fire to come down from heaven unto the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he seduced them that dwell on the earth, for the signs, which were given him to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make the image of the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and lived.
15 And it was given him to give life to the image of the beast, and that the image of the beast should speak; and should cause, that whosoever will not adore the image of the beast, should be slain.
so 24 months gone, 18 to go.
and from la salette tells we know that
"rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist"
the false prophet prepares the path for the antichrist and the one world religion, to mirror and mock the mission of john the baptist,
who prepared the path for jesus.
The liturgy serves the Church not the other way around. Paul VI with the support of the Bishops and with the validation later of St John Paul II decided that the NO was the express will of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council.
Mass of Pius V, after four hundred years, had fulfilled its work of service until Benedict authorized its use again. However, it is abundantly clear that he desire an hybrid Mass, combining elements of the NO and the Mass of 1570, to be known as Mutual Enrichment.
The English Anglican-Catholic, Fr Hunnewick has named his blog after it.
Well according to Bergoglio's interview today, Benedict becoming Pope Emeritus created an institution of Pope Emeritai, so Gabriel you can look forward to one heretical pope after another reigning over the RCC for 2 or 3 years, retiring, and forming a sort of Vatican lobby of Pope Emeritai to strong arm and bully the next pope into continuing the Vatican II agenda with respect to the liturgy.
In fact Bergoglio is so enamored of the idea he might impose term limits on papacies after the example of the American Presidents.
I do not doubt that Gaybriel was baptized a Catholic and even went to study in a seminary. What's more, I wouldn't be surprised if he a religious brother or a "deacon," as he puts it. Maybe even a priest in a chancery somewhere along the coast.
so roughly corresponding to 2016 election time
I suggest you read Prof Frank Moloney's commentary on the Book of Revelation.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to somewhere I can find that commentary on Revelation would you? Because google searches bring up a commentary on the gospels by a Francis J Moloney but I can't find a commentary on Revelation. And just searching Frank Maloney unfortunately brings up crap about a transvestite boxer.
No wait, I found it The Apocalypse: The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ (Good News Studies Vol. 5) by Francis Maloney $70 used, $4,896.01 new. Must be REALLY good at that price.
Like the Pope I wonder if Gabriel is even Catholic. There is no Catholic sense in either of them...a spiritual blindness - poor things ...the fact is they are both quite tediously, superfcially, unattractive in their approach to Catholicism.
The modernists of course are big on "dialogue" with everyone but Traditional Catholics...meaning that they are not interested in the objective truth Divinely revealed... neither is Gabriel or Pope Francis.
Gabriel is a pompus windbag, a provoker , no humilty...empty rhetoric ... in a word, poor thing, slave to his own opinions and self. ...a prayer for him and Pope Francis...who is the same and is making the papacy into his own image and likeness. It's incredible - but that's what he's doing! May God forgive him for all the damage he has managed to do in such a short space of time...quite frankly I have very negative feelings when I see or hear him ...but I don't want anyone to end up keeping the devil company for ever and ever...no I don't wish that on anyone..not even the worst pope in history ...who risks damning many souls because of his constant , backtracking, ambiguous "teachings"....what Catholic in their right mind cannot see this and can stand him?
He is no friend of Christ Our Lord. Terrifying as her's supposed to be His Vicar.
M.
Are we missing something here? Pope Francis is not doing this in a liturgical setting so why do we care?
Gabriel wrote:
“If you follow to its conclusions the logic of the tradition about only men (the Twelve) were present at the Last Supper and therefore only male feet were washed, then you would have to say that only bishops should be present at the Commemoration of the Lord's Supper.”
False. Priests, deacons, and sub-deacons are an extension of the powers of a bishop. Therefore, at least during the Mass itself, only these men should have their feet washed. There was a tradition of the Pope washing the feet of poor people after the liturgy, so I am not sure there is a problem here with him doing that but your statements are odd.
Gabriel wrote:
“If Catholicism is by some kind of divine obligation to continue forming its theology out of an undifferentiated Patristic semiotic then the Church will be forever trapped in the treadmill of free association.”
This is insidious thinking that throws away all organic development from continuity, a thought pattern that admits eventual contradicts within liturgical development as something accepted and not merely demanding reform or pruning.
In fact, your defense of this practice reflects what the Popes did in the 12 century. Are you defending a development from the Middle Ages or something novel from the post-modern period? Are you defending an ever-changing liturgy the will contradict itself from age to age in its non-dogmatic practices – a tenant of neo-Modernism? There are many other treadmills here.
“Example: Clearly Pius V did not feel obliged to include the Anaphora of Mari and Addai in the Unforgettable Mass of 1570.”
What does that have to do with the topic? Are we going to explore the limits of Pius V and his commission on their liturgical reform? No one here is arguing freezing the liturgy in the patristic time period like a bunch of antiquarians.
"the 2800 bishops of the Second Ecumenical Council including Paul VI who was one of them, understood perfectly well what they were doing when they set aside the Mass of Pius V as having fulfilled its function and established the vernacular as normative for the Universal Church."
Another gratuitous assertion.
Gabriel wrote:
“The liturgy serves the Church not the other way around.”
The liturgy serves for the glorification of God first and the edification of the people second. This is basic stuff.
Gabriel wrote:
“Paul VI with the support of the Bishops and with the validation later of St John Paul II decided that the NO was the express will of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council.”
A disciplinary procedure that can admit prudential error. What’s more absurd is that God allowed the Church to function with various liturgies for well over a 1,000 years that looked nothing like the Novus Ordo but more closer to the 1570 missal, throughout different times periods and cultures, until our glorious awaking in the 20th century. Sounds protestant right?
Gabriel wrote:
“Mass of Pius V, after four hundred years, had fulfilled its work of service until Benedict authorized its use again. However, it is abundantly clear that he desire an hybrid Mass, combining elements of the NO and the Mass of 1570, to be known as Mutual Enrichment.”
See? Benedict’s will contradicts Paul VI. Let’s throw in Pius XII too. All three have a different opinion on the liturgy, not all of them can be right. Do you see where I am going? Someone (maybe all?) can be wrong here. Heck in 50 years you can have an entirely new opinion from a Pope. We don’t work like positivists you know.
The washing of feet should be taken out of the parish Holy Thursday Mass and moved to the Chrism Mass, attended only by the bishops and all his priests.
We are told to imitate Christ but as it pertains to Holy Thursday Mass Pope Francis refuses to imitate Christ in departing from public places into a special place where He instituted the Eucharist and the Priesthood.
Of course, one would expect the Vicar of Christ to offer the Holy Thursday Mass in a consecrated Catholic Church and wash the feet of men but we know that is not what Pope Francis is going to do.
Jesus is the way?
Apparently not ,for Pope Francis has instituted the novel way and, other than complaining about what he does, the poor layman has nothing he can do for the Pope has the power, but he is fast losing the masses of even neo-caths.
The act is getting tiresome.
What abuot the extraordinary jubilee of Mercy? It's really cute and cool.....
For much of the last two years, I've hoped for quick end to this papacy and have been heartened by the consistent rumors suggesting Bergoglio will retire around his 80th birthday. Now, however, I've found myself wondering if it really matters whether he quits today or in ten years.
The group who elected Bergoglio was supposed to be conservative, yet we got the most liberal pope in Church history. And now because of Bergoglio, the College of cardinals is more liberal than it was on March 13, 2013. So why expect a better result?
We've read many Cardinals regret their votes for Bergoglio, but that doesn't mean any of them were or will be looking for the next Pius XII. Men like Ranjith, Burke, Piacenza, Bagnasco, and Pell have little chance of becoming pope. Heck, even Scola couldn't get it done and he was all but Benedict's hand picked successor. And Maroglia likely wouldn't stand a chance either if Bergoglio were ever to give him a red hat.
So while things just continue to get worse under Bergoglio, I'm not sure a new conclave will solve anything. Very likely, Tagle will be the defacto choice of the Martini/Bergoglio gang. Basically, that would be like Montini following Roncalli. And should there be enough resistance to him, then Perolin.
If only Siri had won in 1978.
More Pope Francis theatre.
No, it's not gratuitous assertion. It is fact, Amos. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of the Faithful received and welcomed the NO is crystal clear example of the validation of the Sensus Fidei Fidelium as described in Lumen Gentium and earlier by Bl John Henry Card. Newman.
Is there anything happening in Rome to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the birth of St Therese of Avila, doctor of the church, on March 28?
Or is that a B.C. event (before the council) so we can pretend it never happened?
No, it is gratuitous assertion. It is fact, Gabriel. It is a fact that your stating that "the overwhelming majority of the Faithful received and welcomed the NO" is a crystal clear example of your having changed the definition of "Faithful," and along with it the meaning of the "Sensus Fidei Fidelium." In your view faithful means nothing but a tithe payer no matter how devilish they live. Well, if that's what faithful means, then sure: the Baptists are equally a part of your Faithful; they pay their tithes and live in unrepentant fornication too.
Absolutely, in honor of Teresa the pope will wash the feet of women on Holy Thursday. (Tongue in cheek)
No, Gabriel, the "overwhelming majority of the Faithful" became unfaithful after the introduction of the innovative, man-centred, subverted Mass of 1969.
Gabriel, "pope" Francis is a faker and a fraud and so are you but who am I to judge?
Yes, he'll have th cameras rolling, ah he's so humble, we know that because he told us.
Will the Holy Eucharist or the Institution of the Priesthood be mentioned at the Lords Supper ? I prefer to avoid looking or reading anymore about what the Pope does or says, especially on Holy Thursday. He hardly mentioned the Holy Eucharist last year at the Lords Supper ? God help all of us. The Church is being torn to pieces and yes this is purifying all of us. Just as Jesus died and rose again, so must the Church be purified completely and it is happening and will be moreso in the future. I look to Heaven our eternal Home. Thank God we are just passing through this world.
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