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1.) In 1996, the secretary of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF) wrote: Official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level, because that would be in contradiction to what the Bishops of former Yugoslavia affirmed in their fore mentioned Declaration.
So while pilgrimages to Medjugorje are permitted, they could not be organized by Church bodies (parishes, dioceses) with the understanding that Medjugorje is “a place of authentic Marian apparitions.”
2.) In late October 2014, Cardinal Muller of the CDF issued a letter stating that priests AND the lay faithful "are not permitted to participate in meetings, conferences or public celebrations during which the credibility of such 'apparitions' would be taken for granted." That obviously includes pilgrimages which encourage belief in the apparitions.
Source: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/14-things-to-know-and-share-about-the-new-letter-on-medjugorje#ixzz2wEv13pCW3.) A group called "206 Tours" specializes in providing Catholics with pilgrimages to Catholic holy sites. In a January 18th Facebook update, 206 Tours clearly stated that they will continue to promote Medjugorje pilgrimages despite the CDF letter.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151990018948392&set=a.173253568391.123395.139209248391&type=1&theater4. Enter Dr. Scott Hahn of EWTN/Franciscan University fame. Dr. Hahn is paid by 206 Tours to help lead pilgrimages. This is evident through a simple Google search or a perusal of the 206 Tours Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/206-Tours/1392092483915. My concern is that, because 206 Tours caters to so many Catholic customers and makes its money off of Catholic holy places, it is unethical for this group to defy the Church on this matter, and it is therefore also unethical for Dr. Hahn to help promote and lend an appearance of legitimacy to this group.
EWTN contact information:
5817 Old Leeds Rd. Irondale, AL 35210-2164
Canada mail: EWTN PO Box 157 Station A Etobicoke, Ontario, M9C 4V2
Phone: 205-271-2900
Your blog has done some great stories. When are you going to start reporting on Cormac Brissett, the supporter of NAMBLA who is now a candidate for the priesthood in the Salvatorian Order?
ReplyDeleteThe Salvatorians have been a hotbed for sodomites since at least the 1950s, sad to say. I am not in the least surprised by your news.
DeleteThe Salvatorians are one of the orders that should have been suppressed decades ago.
I fail to see how the 206 tours and Dr. Hahn are disobeying any of the listed Church directives. I'm not sure what you have against Medjugorje or Dr. Hahn. ..."That obviously includes pilgrimages which encourage belief in the apparitions." -- Uh that's not what it says. You're adding your own interpretations. There have been many tour groups for many years and the Church has shut down none of them. People are free to go on their own non-church sponsored tours and that sounds like exactly what is going on here. Dr. Hahn is a professor, not a priest and to my knowledge is not an official spokesperson for the Church. No I myself have never been to Medjugorje.
ReplyDeleteDid you actually bother to read the points?
DeleteWhy would 206 continue to take tours to Medjugorje in disobedience of legitimate Church authority?
Why would Scott Hahn continue to endorse them? It doesn't mater if he's a priest or not. He claims to be a credited Theologian who is responsible for the formation and edification of his students. How about setting a good example?
I want to start by saying I neither approve or disapporve of what is going on in Medjugorje. Rome is investigating & when they make their final decision, I will fully support it.
DeleteThat having been said, I read the points. The opening sentence of this post starts out with a blatent lie. It says Catholics have been forbidden from attending pilgimages to Medjugorje. Yet later on it points that only those pilgimages that say the site is a place of authentic apparitions of Mary are forbidden.
I decided to check out the 206 website. Here is what they say "Our Lady allegedly appeared to six children." Note the use of the word allegedly. In short, they are NOT saying this is an authentic apparition & are NOT promoting it as such. So they are clearly NOT in disobedience to Church authority. Nor is Dr. Scott Hahn.
CDF forbids that Catholics participate in events with this "apparition". The local ordinary also has condemned it. So much for obedience, and so much for being neither for not against the apparition.
DeleteIn fact, if you're neither for nor against, you either don't know enough about this fraud or have pecuniary motives yourself and should probably exempt yourself from commenting.
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DeleteOh, c'mon. It's not like there saying a TLM or anything - according to NewChurch®, that's really the only sin you can commit these days. Fake visions of Mary, gay sex, gay marriage, divorce-remarry, shacking-up - who are we to judge? Just make a mess! Lio everybody, lio! God loves you no matter what, so just be nice, and for Christ's sake, don't hold a TLM.
ReplyDeleteDr Scott Hahn has taken an Oath of Fidelity to the Pope! He would never lead Catholics into a practice that goes against the Vatican or Church teaching!
ReplyDeleteFranciscan University: Academically Mediocre, Passionately Catholic*
(*Definition may vary depending on subject matter.)
My comment is regarding both EWTN and Dr. Scott Hahn. Both adhere to Catholic teaching (orthodoxy, which is what all Catholics should be, but that's another story).
ReplyDeleteScott Hahn is a devout, trusted Catholic professor/theologian, author and speaker, and EWTN (also orthodox) does not stray from true Catholic teaching - I trust both implicitly.
Here is a link on what is permitted and not permitted regarding Medjugorje: https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm
Blessings,
Deb
http://www.wearethesalt.blogspot.com
That hasn’t been my experience. Words are words, and actions are something else entirely.
Deletehttp://www.networkgonewrong.com
Tancred, I am very much familiar with networkgonewrong.com & the lies & halftruths in the book they promote. I say that as someone who has been a supporter of EWTN from the early days. It would take way too much space to refute the lies.
ReplyDeleteInstead I will point out that that website is affiliated with Famtima Crusader & Fr. Nicholas Gruner.
He promotes Fatima as a public revelation, contrary to Catholic magesterial teaching that statea all public revelation ceased with the death of the Apostles.
Back in the 80s his Bishop in Avellino IT ordered him to return to the diocese. Rather than obey, Gruner made claims that he couldn't because of a lack of money to do so. Meanwhile, he was making appearances at conferences held by his organization in Rome.
He has also has his priestly faculties suspended as a result of this disobedience. The Congregation for the Clergy has stated that Father Gruner's suspension was "confirmed by a definitive sentence of the supreme tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura." This was in 2001 & nothing has been happenned since then for the Congregation to say this is no longer true.
In other words, you’re not prepared to actually criticize the book, or address the numerous problems and disreputable individuals associated with EWTN, so you’ll focus on another situation you’re neither qualified to understand nor competent to judge.
DeleteAl, Medjugorje was thoroughly, completely and unanswerably discredited not only by respected Churchmen and lay people, but by the local Bishop of Mostar, more than once.
DeleteIt is simply a fraud and you owe it to yourself to look into this matter carefully. In the Church's history stories of phony visions are commonplace and it is not difficult to investigate these things in order to see how the Church dealt with them.
But a simple way to determine the veracity of Medjugorje is this: Our Lady does not speak heresy. And since the "gospa" of Medjugorje has been known to utter (incessantly) that all religions are pleasing to God that one fact exposes this as the dangerous lie that it is.
We have to start using our heads here and not our emotions.
This seems fairly cut and dried to me. In 1996, the CDF declared that Catholics cannot make pilgrimages to Medjugorje if the nature of such pilgrimages encourages belief in the alleged apparitions.
ReplyDeleteIn late October 2013, the CDF repeated that the faithful are banned from participating in events which presume the legitimacy of the alleged Medjugorje apparitions.
In early 2014, 206 Tours declared that they'll keep selling Medjugorje pilgrimages and used a picture of the alleged visionaries in the statement.
Therefore 206 Tours is violating both the 1996 and 2013 orders of the CDF.
Scott Hahn lends his good reputation to the group and financially profits from the group's overall activities. One could easily construe that as unethical.
All of the comments above assume that the behavior is acceptable because the man himself has been known to be faithful, orthodox, has a great reputation, works for a good school and a good broadcaster, etc.
ReplyDeleteBut none of that actually touches the real issue- he's financially profiting and lending an air of legitimacy to a group that is openly defying multiple declarations from the CDF.
The CDF has repeatedly stated that the faithful are not to participate in Medjugorje-based activities that presume that the apparitions are real. 206 Tours is defying this Vatican directive by using the image of the visionaries to promote the tours.
This is on par with a renowned Catholic theology professor working closely with a group that promotes anything else the Church has forbidden (abortion, birth control, gay marriage, etc).
It's very simple to see the problem here.
ReplyDelete"You shall know them by their fruits!"
I see a certain "Celebrity" a Dr. Hahn
of the elite Vat II crowd, disregarding every warning issued by the Church, etc and leading other gullible or uninformed Faithful, into a known False Apparition Trap. He is wrong to do this. Just my opinion.
So much confusion among Catholics... sometimes i wonder why i bothered to convert
ReplyDeleteThere's always 50,000 Protestant Sects and numerous other cults you probably haven't tried yet.
DeleteHave you looked at Budhism yet?
This isn't a matter of "confusion" so much as disobedience pretending to be confusion. The Church has always deferred to the local bishop in matters of alleged apparitions, and the bishop of Medjugorje said there's no evidence to support the apparition.
DeleteSome people want to keep saying "the Vatican is investigating, so let's wait and see" as a stalling tactic. But the fact is, the bishop has spoken.
As to the CDF declarations, the CDF has repeatedly said that the faithful may not participate in activities which assume the legitimacy of the supposed apparitions. A pilgrimage by definition presumes that the apparitions are real. A pilgrimage is when a religious believer goes to a place because he believes something holy or supernatural happened there.
Therefore, 206 Tours is violating the CDF's two previous statements, and Dr. Hahn is profitably associating with a group that is defying the Vatican.
Ah Tancred your reply tells me everything! you are full of pride and arrogance - and most of all, judgment! poor excuse for a Catholic, much less a Christian.... you are exactly the kind of Christian who turns people away from the faith! Shame on you, what a disgrace!
DeleteWhether that's true or not, I suspect the person who made the comment thinks they're doing everyone a favor by being Catholic. Being Catholic is a reward in itself.
DeleteYour faith cannot depend on confusion in others perceived by you. The Faith has an unchanging objective content to which one assents. If you decide to renounce the Faith, that is your responsibility.
DeleteI support you fully Tancred - up to this point and until, further notice Catholics should not be making pilgrimages to this place and certainly not organised ones. The local ordinary should be obeyed - while it is "non constat de supernaturalitater" those whose position is influential - viz Hahn, should not be placing themselves or others, for that matter, in a compromising position.
ReplyDeleteThat Our Blessed Lady is supposedly on call at any time at all to the so-called seers and that She has allegedly made already some 40,000++ visits; criticised the local ordinary; claimed all religions are equal in God's eyes and so on ad nauseam, it is obviously a plain old hoax.
We do not need apparitions for salvation in The Faith, neither should we become fanatical about any. As this particular one is implicated in such divisiveness and sheer nonsense it cannot possibly be anything other than the Bishops of Mostar have already stated.
My advice is to keep away. Confession and The Latin Mass are available in many uncontentious lieus. If we really have to go on pilgrimage then Lourdes is a wonderful place to find The Blessed Virgin in Her unambiguous and unadulterated magnificence. Moreover, She loves The Roman Catholic Church and has left a permanent sign there as to the importance and significance of belief in what The Church has always taught us.
This is something the "Gospa" patently does not
There is apparently a pilgrimage site in Mostar which pilgrims may avail themselves of.
DeleteThere’s so much available for a Catholic without having to resort to this sort of thing.
...medjugorje-fides inficio infeci infectum
ReplyDeleteThe CDF actually prohibits official ecclesial bodies from organizing official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; i.e., if a diocese has an official diocesan "pilgrimage office". Few in the US do, but outside of the US, they are common. The CDF says nothing about faithful going or organizing their own pilgrimages. Hence, 206 and Scott Hahn are not in the wrong... BTW, how is Scott Hahn a montanist??
ReplyDeletePS: in late October, 2014, Cardinal Mueller said nothing because it hasn't happened yet.
It seems that all of these negative commentaries are by the people who have never been in Medjugorje. Some of you are so convinced that Medjugorje is false and it seems that you are convinced without even going through the history of the Apparitions with a objective attitude. The statements of the bishops of Mostar have been conditioned by the situatons in those times. The Church has made a great error by not including in a three year long study of Medjugorje such learned and estimeed scholars who now have to put all kinds of vicious attack via different blogs. If you are so much into obeying the rulling of the Church, why don't you wait for a final verdict about Medjugorje. You are spiting poison over Medjugorje even before the Church has forbidden it, if taht ever happens. So I am wondering who is it that gives you news and assurances that Medjugorje apparitions are false. It may well be coming from the "other" side. He is cunning in finding ways for people to stay deaf on God's call to conversion. So stop spiting poison and leave the people to go by their own conscience. The only thruth is that Church has NOT forbidden EVER the private pilgrimages to Medjugorje. The last official church proclamation about Medjugorje is from 1991 and it is known as Zadar Declaration issued by Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia (at that time). Read it all and in fullness. Do not extarct the parts of it but read it completely.
ReplyDeleteAnd wait till the Holy See sais their opinion, because their word is the final one and inspired by the Divine.
..amphibolous jeremiad...drugs kill yet i need not take them to see this...juris tantum by default not supernatural until proven...so this is not an evil stance....yet strict inductive scandal is evil...by advising people to travel here on the presumption of supernatural visions is against Church directive...yet pride makes us deaf to reason...superbus itaque et surdos ratio
DeleteWow, interesting perspective but it's only one opinion. And, nice platform - a blog - to publish such a slanted perspective. I'd like to know what your personal motivation is behind writing this? The only crime here is this blog post.
ReplyDeleteThe world needs more love and individuals like 206 Tours and Dr. Scott Hahn to teach the Catholic Faith, join in prayer with devout Priests from around the world and engage in fellowship with those who share common beliefs. They are not staking a claim on anything.
Here's a suggestion. Why don't you write about the war-torn lands of Syria or how about researching the Russian crisis. If you have extra free time, please contact some of the authors who have published works on Medjugorje.
We'll be watching to see how you made out in these topical subject matters.
I invite everyone reading this blog to join in prayer for you.
Personally, you gotta love those individuals who have so much free time on their hands. Let me offer you a piece of commentary - faith is a very personal believe to people of any race, color or ethnicity. A travel company is not going to change that. cd
..there is never enough free time to reprehend petulant spiritual children who run the risk of becoming or who already are material heretics and or recalcitrant schismatics... :-)..scott hahn is espousing insubordination ...as catholics of good conscience we should be extirpating through due diligence any indulgence which is antagonistic to christian virtue....the petulant children of medjugorje dont want to take their medecine as prescribed by the Bishop and the CDF and now they pout..its quite a spectacle..acquiescense to whims is not love..gentle reproof characterizes love...
DeleteYou can put the dictionary away. My heart is sad for you. Faith is a very personal thing to individuals of any race, color or ethnicity. No one can change that, not even you. By the way, I am going to Medjugorje this year and cannot wait!! cd
DeleteThe Faith is a very rational thing, and it's an insult to our God given rationality that you disparage that.
DeleteThere is no love without truth. And yes, one ought to obey lawful authority unless this is against objective faith and morals. And Our Lady would never speak heresy nor even thousands of banalities nor express annoyance at a bishop doing his duty in good faith, nor would she encourage people to be disobedient. Our Lady Of Fatima, we ask for greater discernment and freedom from diabolical confusion.
Delete..faith is twofold..objectively we assent to the creeds and traditions..subjectively we have a personal encounter..you are confusing a personal encounter with yourself or with God as you wish him to be rather than a personal encounter with God as he is...as he is revealed through the CHurch...we believe because we trust..however at medjugorje we have no trust in God's agents his magisterium so this faith you speak of is not faith but presupposition in fables based on the witness of seers who do not have two thousand years of tradition behind them.. as the Church and her good Bishops indeed do...everyone who goes to medjugorje searching for freedom is only a rebel..like the devil who rebeled and said i will not serve the man..so too those who travel to medjugorje say they will not serve the man (the Bishop) it is the same spirit..do not feel sorry for me God bless...at medjugorje we have only subjective faith which is superstition without reason..at medjugorje we do not profess to the creed of the holy apostolic Church since at medjugorje we defy the Bishop who is the successor to the apostles... at medjugorje we have the devil subtley turning the CHurch against itself...we have millions of commuions which are taken in a spirit of rebellion against Jesus and his apostle the Good Bishop who has asked for a stop to this mockery of Our Lady...what the devil is doing here is taking people who out of good conscience or who are going through a vulnerable stage in their life and diverting them from true Church towards a heretical version of catholicism..montanism or whatever have you..it is pop culture catholicism..glitz and glamour of the eighties catholicism..that is why bored housewives have been taken in by it..it puts the zap on the head of those who are bored with the dryness of carrying the cross...anyway have a good trip to medjugorje
ReplyDeleteThe Church allows private pilgrimages to Medugorje. Official pilgrimages by dioceses and parishes are not allowed.
ReplyDeleteIn Rome official pilgrimanes by the Rome Vicariate were stopped a few years back. Privately Catholics can go to Medugorje. The Church has not condemned Medugorje as it has done of some apparitions.
..indeed one is allowed to travel to pilgrimage place just as one is allowed to pilgrimage to garbage dump if it so avails one...yet we need to add the conditions which are appended to such a pilgrimage otherwise we have the amiboly or the erroneous rendering of syntax which misleads and is the cause of so much deception......we are not permitted to attribute any supernatural character to alleged apparitions at this place...as per canon 823 such messages which touch on faith and morals need be authorized by the Bishop a Bishop conference or the Holy See and in this matter no approbation has been granted..and so those who pass these messages as coming from the mother of God have no permission to do so...since the index of forbidden books still formally binds the will of one to moral submission..as well all private revelation falls under canon 823 and 824...here rests the disobedience which has abrogated Church magisterium....as well the messages at medjugorje many of which contradict the Gospel either materially or formally depneding upon how one reads them...since this is the lenten season i will post one which deals with fasting from July 21 1982 the Gospa apparently tells us fasting is more necessary than charity which directly condtradicts 1 Corinthians 13:2...without charity one is nothing....
ReplyDeleteyet according to the Gospa this is not true...
Concerning Fasting: "The best fast is on bread and water. Through fasting and prayer, one can stop wars, one can suspend the laws of nature. Charity cannot replace fasting. Those who are not able to fast can sometime replace it with prayer, charity, and a confession; but everyone, except the sick, must fast."
-Gospa of MEDJUGORJE
..and so if one professes themself to be part of the Holy Catholic and apostolic Church one should not permit themself to believe in any message of Medjugorje..indeed a pilgrimage to this place is ok if done in a manner which is approved by the Church yet one wonders why go to medjugorje in the first place if you do not believe these messages to be supernatural and so by doing so you usurp Church authority...thanks :-)
I have never commented on comments to an article before but I am saddened at the lack of charity here, some of your comments are close to viciousness. I was as far away from the Church as anyone could possible be for almost 20 years. In 1987 (a Marian year), I had a miraculous and dramatic conversion back to Catholicism. It happened quite suddenly on the vigil of the Assumption, through our Lady of Medjugorje. I am one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, who have returned through Medjugorje to become faithful, devout, orthodox Catholics.There has never been more fruit in the history of the Church than through Medjugorje. Contrary to some false reporting, these visionaries have given up their lives to live the faith in radical ways and to serve the pilgrims. Doesn't it make sense that in 33 years, one or more of them would have slipped up and said or done something to cause the whole thing to be condemned? Open your hearts!! I would challenge you to make the journey over there and see for yourself............you will see and you will know, just ask for the truth, God's truth.
ReplyDeleteI usually don’t comment on comments like this because I’m so saddened by the lack of charity in them, but I will remind you that there can be know charity without understanding.
Delete